A disturbing trend here

[alex1122]

Measurements? LOL. Reminds me of a sound guy who we used on occasion that walked around the room with his pink noise analyzer, driving everyone in the club crazy. He'd then take this data and move the appropriate slider on his board equalizer as the machine indicated. By far, the worst sound guy on the planet, with the worst mix everytime. I'd have to go remix (by ear) every single time. You can talk all day about DAC's, cords, etc. I'll stick with my well trained ears.

 

A post I put on a different thread when I asked about whether the sonic difference between wired vs. wireless transmission (via airport express) was "big", or small (as in differences between DACS):

 

Hmmm. No offense at all here Chris, and at the risk of getting flamed, I find no difference between interconnects at ANY pricepoint (I have lots of $ in wires if anyone wants deals--lol). A blind listening will prove me right here every time--I don't care what anyone says, and I've tried plenty. Lampcord works just as well. As a lifelong musician with pretty damn good equipment, and plenty of studio experience, I trust my ears... As far as DAC's, I'm saying there are only very subtle differences between expensive ones and cheap ones. I was very surprised, in fact, that when I did an A/B with an IPOD! (yikes) vs. a Beresford DAC (admittedly a relatively cheap DAC but still...), with volume carefully matched, that there was not a HUGE difference sonically. Audible, definitely there even to a casual listener, but not HUGE. This is an extreme example, and goes to the point that once you get beyond the cheapest dac possible (IPOD), the sonic changes are small or non existent. I'm not sure why I was surprised, as this has pretty much been the case throughout my "audiophile" career (amps, preamps, wires, cones, power supplies, gold plated, pure silver, scented audiocandles (OK-i made that up), green edges on redbook cd's (or was it blue?), offerings of virgins, etc, etc ad nauseum). No I haven't tried a $10,000 DAC, but, I have in the past tried many many very high end and well regarded CD players vs. moderately priced ones in critical listening tests and again, found only subtle, if any differences. Even the subtle differences could be attributed to the "expensive wine theory" found elsewhere on this board, as I wasn't listening blind.

 

So. I just bought an airport express. I'll do the best I can with an A/B test, although it won't be as simple or clean as the ipod vs dac test above. Chris heard a "noticeable" difference. I have it hooked up and it sounds great (haven't compared yet). I have a feeling I won't hear any diiference...

 

[alex1122]

Beem-

 

Cleveland State hasn't been in the NCAA March Madness tourney since I was a student there (1986). They just beat the until recently #1 team. HUGE upset!

 

England vs Scotland? I think there's gonna be a Guinness shortage fellas...

 

 

 

[Tog]

At the risk of being banned or whatever I couldn't agree more with Shenzi and Tim! I am fed up of hearing about tight midranges, musicality and depth of sound. There are a lot of magic boxes, tweeksters and jitter quacks out there ready to sell solutions to problems that either don't exist or have little impression on sound quality!

 

yours, with spleen, tog

 

[johnnyturbo]

if you read other audio venues, you should have come to the realization that "if it is worth doing, it is worth doing to excess" is the controlling dictum.

 

yes, indeed, the cat is out of the bag, mixed metaphors run amuck, this thread has taken on a life of its own; and i had the temerity to have, just for one moment, that this site would be different. wo ist mir. oy vez mir. like rick blaine (our hero, from "Casablanca", " I am a rank sentimentalist" and continue to hope that good sense will prevail and posters will think twice before hitting "submit"

 

this site has provided too much solid useful information and support to sink into the muck of ideological struggle.

 

nah, don't follow the college b-ball world anymore.

 

johnnyturbo

 

 

 

[johnnyturbo]

hi-

there must be a way to maintain privacy while scheduling a listen to the 9.1s. i actually live in jamaica plain and am willing to meet you in a 'safe'

venue, then move out from there for a listen.

 

chris- it is ok for mpmct to pm me.

johnnyturbo

 

[alex1122]

JohnnyTurbo:

 

Speaking of Jamaica mon, I am, as we speak, just groovin to Bob Marley on my Macbook shooting through the air to an airport express to dac to rest of the kit. Sounds great, cooking food, toe tapping, drinking wine, wife shakin her behind... All is good, including the tunes (well--except the ^$#*%@ Cleveland weather...)

 

 

[johnnyturbo]

solid. jamaica plain, ma. ( but, the legend lives :walkin' down the road, with a rutchet in his waist, johnny too bad... " just listened to "Legend" the other day......

 

yes, gone but not forgotten, bmw. i keep house in jamaica plain, ma. but, damn, wouldnt mind being in that other place, for all the reasons jamaica is known for.

 

my sister has lived around cleveland for years. the weather, ah, the weather off the lake. no more be said!

 

damn, enough of this forum back and forth of " the sound and the fury signifying nothing".

be cool, but care.

best,

johnnyturbo

 

[AV-OCD]

Tim -

 

In regards to your response to my comment that I've been more impressed with the sound quality at the high-end shops than the mid-fi shops, first let me say that overall I my experiences have mirrored yours. Often times there is a very marginal difference between the sound quality of the products offered in the two markets, and to many people I would hardly think that the cost difference is justifiable between high-end and mid-fi. I believe that the best value is still in the mid-fi category and I will continue to recommend reasonably priced components to those that are relatively new to the hobby and those looking for the best value. I also strongly believe that the three things that will have the biggest impact on sound quality are the recording, the speakers, and the room, much more than any DAC or cable IME. But, I've been in this hobby for 15+ years, and now that I have my room treated, and have found speakers that get it "right" for me, I'm looking to do all that I can to squeeze every last bit of performance out of my system--enter my experimental journey into the high-end.

 

You asked: "But have you ever heard the electronics from the mid-fi shop playing the same recordings and driving the same speakers in the same room?"

 

Yes, in my home with my speakers, with my music, in an acoustically treated room. As I mentioned, up until this past year, my front end has been reasonably priced--mostly Denon AVRs and CD/DVD players, so all comparisons were made against a Denon 4308 AVR.

 

I tried four different high-end prepros to see if if I could hear any differences / improvements over the Denon AVR. I started with the $4K NAD Master Series prepro (smoother and more "analog" sounding than the Denon, but the UI sucked which was deal breaker), then the $7K Anthem Statement D2 (sounded no better than the Denon and the UI sucked on this one too), then the $14K Lexicon MC12HD prepro (loved the Logic 7 surround processing but sound quality wise it was no better than the Denon), and lastly the $8K Classe SSP-800 prepro. While the differences between all of them were very subtle compared to something like different sets of speakers, the Classe produced the most natural sound to these ears, while also resolving more detail than the others, and it had the features, functionality, and build quality I wanted.

 

There are also other aspects to high-end gear that add value that have nothing to do with sound quality, such as build quality and support after the sale. I can contact the head of Classe Tech Support directly to get my questions answered, whereas with Denon, you get someone that will regurgitate the instruction manual to you at best.

 

Where we differ is that based on your experience you throw the entire lot of high-end offerings into the same basket (no better and sometimes worse than mid-fi), whereas I have found that while many high-end pieces may offer little if any benefit over mid-fi, there are some gems. And therein lies one of the biggest problems I find. With many of these discussions, there are simply too many generalizations made, when really each component needs to be given individual consideration. Are all Chinese made goods crap? Many may be, but I've owned some very nicely made things that were built in China.

 

I'm a bit of an odd duck, in that I have a relatively inexpensive, massed-produced Mac Mini feeding a high-end processor, connected to an high-end amp with interconnects that I made my self for about $15 each. So I accept and reject the high-end at the same time. A little more on that . . . the Mac Mini now in my system replaced a high-end CD player because the Mini sounded just as good to me, while offering a substantial improvement in access to my music collection. I also recently tried a $500 Bel Canto gizmo that is supposed to improve the quality of the digital signal coming out of the Mac. At best it sounds identical to the jitter-prone toslink output from the Mac, and at worst I think I like the sound of the Toslink better. If I were the "likes the more expensive wine better" type of person, surely I would have picked the $500 Bel Canto device over the $20 toslink cable, and the high-end CD player over the Mac Mini.

 

In the end, this is what I take from your posts. Be skeptical and don't believe the hype. I'm all for that, but I would like to add, "find out for your self." Listen skeptically, but do listen. If that can be done with the help of another, in a blind test, all the better, but in the absence of a blind test, trust your gut and buy what makes you happy that is within your budget.

 

 

 

[Roseval]

Nothing to add

 

[tfarney]

I don't think all electronic components sound alike, just really, really close. And I don't think you necessarily have to get to an $8,000 Classe to get that last little improvement. Here's a very common example you can go hear at Best Buy. If you listen closely enough, long enough, you will hear a bit of midrange "warmth," for lack of a better term, in Pioneer Elite receivers, and more of an open, clear quality in the high-current, better Yamaha stuff. I won't even say one is better than the other. It's so subtle I'll call it a matter of taste, though I suspect the Yamaha is more transparent. If I had it to do today, I'd probably pass go and head straight for Cambridge Audio. I think they get it absolutely right at a reasonable price point.

 

Tino -- I don't have a studio background, I have a musical and commercial production background, which has put me in a lot of studios over the years. The midfield monitors I had in mind were custom built for the two studios I had in mind, and the amps and active crossovers were outside of the cabinets in a rack, a tweaker's dream ...but for a simpler solution, something like the Dynaudio Air 20, self-contained 3-way active at around $6K a pair is worth a listen. The woofers are only 10", though and to get the larger than life scale of big floor standers you'll probably still need a well-integrated sub, but for speed accuracy, integration, imaging and most importantly, resolution, I'd put my money on them against almost any high-end passive box speakers I've heard, regardless of the size and cost of the box. And while I haven't heard them, given the design principles they're based upon, I'd expect very high-end performance from AVI ADM 9.1's with sub. I have every reason to expect the most of them.

 

Clay --

 

"The trouble starts when an objectivist tries to insist that these opinions are NOT valid unless they have data to back them up, IOW, trying to insist that only their approach to developing opinions is valid."

 

Sometimes. And sometimes the trouble starts when subjectivists aren't subjective at all, when they present their opinions as absolutes, declaring the clear superiority of their gear and only calling themselves subjectivists to avoid the need for evidence to support their declared superiority. IN MY OPINION. In any case, it is all easily addressed. We can have measurement and trust our ears at once. It's called the blind listening test. The ultimate trust of your ears.

 

Tim

 

[alex1122]

Yeah... What Tim said.

 

 

 

(which Tim?)

 

[AV-OCD]

The "OG" Tim said: "I don't think you necessarily have to get to an $8,000 Classe to get that last little improvement."

 

I think that is completely plausible. I think that there is also equal likelihood that someone could prefer the sound of a mid-fi piece over my Classe, and that you could even find something with a similar character at a much lower cost. But I have to come clean here, my choice to go with the Classe was also motivated by the build quality and industrial styling to a large degree. I wanted something as beautiful to the eyes and the intellect as it is to the ears. Pride in ownership? Guilty. Have you seen this processor? It's gorgeous and built with great attention to detail.

 

http://www.hemagazine.com/files/Classe%20SSP-800b.jpg

 

It all comes down to context. No more would I tell someone that is looking for an accurate timepiece that they "need" a Rolex, than I would tell them that they "need" expensive audio gear for great sound quality. But if you are in the market for Rolex, for what ever reason, I would tell you to check out Breitling too.

 

I just have one last thing to say. I too find it surprising how often mountains are made of molehills in this hobby. I mean you would think that if you didn't absolutely do something about your jitter problems that your system is going to sound like a complete bag of noisy, harsh, garbage. This simply has not been my experience. Can you do better by lowering jitter? Maybe, but I'd say that the general level of quality is pretty high in mid-fi source components these days.

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Hi Everyone - I love this discussion and think you guys are a cut above many traditional audio forum readers. Thanks to everyone who has taken time to leave an opinion so far. I think it's a fair assumption that everyone who has left a comment did so because they actually care. If you guys didn't care you'd likely be on your way or spending your valuable time with friends and family rather than opening yourself up to possible negative disagreements.

 

Some of the topics mentioned in this thread will make interesting topics of discussion when the Computer Audiophile podcasts start very soon. More about the podcasts to come, but I will say manufacturer interviews, audio engineer interviews, CA reader questions, CA readers interviews and a ton of other exciting things will be included in the podcasts :~)

 

[cfmsp]

 

"And sometimes the trouble starts when subjectivists [...] present their opinions as absolutes, declaring the clear superiority of their gear and only calling themselves subjectivists to avoid the need for evidence to support their declared superiority."

 

Tim,

In case it's not obvious, I abhor anything presented as absolute - note the ironic subject - and so I am in complete agreement with you here - and actually quite a lot more often than you might imagine. Subjectivists have NO BUSINESS presenting anything as other than their own personal opinion/experience.

 

For the record, my thoughts will never be intended as anything more than my opinion. If it seems otherwise - call me out on it.

 

clay

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[tfarney]

I'm a pretty big fan of industrial design myself. It's a part of the reason why I like Apple products so much. That Classe is gorgeous. Pride of ownership? I can't imagine how you could avoid it.

 

(the other) Tim

 

[AV-OCD]

I'm writing this on MacBook while listening to music through my MacMini. Both have impeccable styling and build, they are easy to use, and their performance is top notch. I love it when art and technology come together.

 

[Labarum]

Wow. The wires have been a buzzing.

 

All opinions must have been aired by now, but I make an observation:

 

If individuals are posting offensively, or otherwise outside the published rules they should be warned and offending posts deleted; if necessary offenders can be locked out for a time, or for eternity; but if a thread is locked to all members to halt a tedious, odious or irrelevant discussion, it will usually be prolonged, for the hydra will spawn many more heads.

 

Members will have their say!

 

 

 

[shenzi]

Actually ... I thought it looked like a component from a chef's kitchen. Ah, what became of the Lecsons of yesteryear ...

 

[Labarum]

I thought the price gap with Windows boxes was narrowing, but the new models have pulled ahead again. Beautifully designed and made, but worth it?

 

"And all was for an apple,

An apple that he took.

As clerkes finden,

Written in their book."

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Lay_Ybounden

 

 

 

[alex1122]

There you go... I just bought the new Apple Macbook (the sexy slick aluminum one) for a slightly better computing interface, a supposedly easier music interface, and, most importantly, it's small form factor and beautifully engineered good looks. Like one of the Tims' Classe (I've been waiting to use that plural ), the appreciation of the engineering and design played at least as big a role as the functionality. And I payed more for it than any PC based similarly equipped laptop... ALOT more. Did I capitalize ALOT?

 

The difference is, as with the Classe, we acknowledge this fact readily. Like a high end car, a beautiful woman, a well made drink, a bespoke suit, a perfectly prepared dinner-- we like nice shit.

 

That, and, of course, without question, the obviously more "open" midrange of the Macbook coupled with the obvious removal of the slight "mist" in the treble associated with PC's (Sony's at least, HP's not so much). I won't even get into the bass extension...

 

[johnnyturbo]

brian, excellent point re the need to maintain open, civil discussion; the former relates to maintaining open threads, until chris makes the decision - and he IS the decision maker - to close them. perhaps and archive function can be built in so the postings will not be lost; the latter is quite simple: maintain respect for divergent if not antithetical points of view ( hectoring, condescension, name-calling and their relatives will not be tolerated by the community. again, chris has shown an admirable lack of desire to 'mix it up' over the course of this thread; and he has the authority to control access to the boards, which i have no reason to believe will be done with anything other than a chamois glove.

 

props to all for writing your peace and moving forward.

 

johnnyturbo.

 

[markr]

... all we are say-ing..... Is give Peace a chance.....

 

[alex1122]

Of course, I failed to mention that a Sony computer's midrange "hash" could be easily resolved by facing it Southwest, and placing it on a well oiled maple cutting board. Or, easier yet, by using one of those magical roach clips which gives the overall presentation a "rightness" and puts the musicians in their proper place on the expanded, yet compressed soundstage, opening up the upper octaves while simultaneously tightening the bass response and presence. But who has time for that shit?

 

CSU is getting their ass handed to them as I type...

 

[markr]

... have the capability to watch the Spurs play the Rockets right now...

UT lost to Duke last night (as mostly expected) so I don't have a horse in the NCAA march madness race now.

 

I'm fairly sure that is (almost) just me though... listening on the radio instead.

 

[mpmct]

 

"I'm writing this on MacBook while listening to music through my MacMini. Both have impeccable styling and build, they are easy to use, and their performance is top notch. I love it when art and technology come together." ...

 

Reminded me of something from a NY Times article of a few years ago

(can't supply the URL, sorry ) quoting The Steve:

 

"'Most people make the mistake of thinking design is what it looks like,'' says Steve Jobs, Apple's C.E.O. ''People think it's this veneer -- that the designers are handed this box and told, 'Make it look good!' That's not what we think design is. It's not just what it looks like and feels like. Design is how it works.''