USB cable comparisons

[fas42]

If you want accurate sound, then the cable thing becomes a very simple exercise: either it does nothing to the sound; or it makes it worse; or it makes it better. If the system is re-engineered so that a particular run of cable is no longer needed - it's been designed out of the equation - active speakers are a simple example of this - then we have the "does nothing" scenario - which I for one am in favour of, 😉. The "makes it worse" to most people should be a no-no, I reckon ... which leaves us with the "makes it better". And the question here is, why ... ?? If adding a certain cable "makes it better" then what's it actually doing? Adding 'nice' distortion', subtracting unpleasant distortion; compensating for less than decent engineering somewhere in the rig ... ... what??

[richard_crl032]

Nothing is accurate ... only your preference and can accept at your planned budget imho.

 

Cheers.

[fas42]

5 minutes ago, richard_crl032 said:

 

Believe wishful thinking on listening to what is recorded ..  every designer of components, including usb cable, in the audio chain have their take on what is should sound when recorded.

 

There is an absolute ... what is actually in the source data, on the recorded track. Not so much with analogue, but once locked into a digital format, it's frozen. It will be the same if copied without error over a thousand generations, or replayed in a thousand years time - we won't bring the ideas of @sandyk into this 🙃. That's the sound we can guarantee to retrieve, if the reproduction system is up to it ... what was intended, in the recording studio, is completely irrelevant at this point.

 

5 minutes ago, richard_crl032 said:

 

Indeed but those will not survive for long and there are plenty of brand of expensive stuff that had been around for a long time ... let's not kid ourselves on gettinng cheap and great but only VFM. Having engineering solutions is not cheap and someone has to pay.

 

Cheers.

 

Current solutions that are VFM are pretty amazing - if set up well, they do so much that is right - which makes expensive, blingy stuff only valuable for doing things other than SQ more impressively ...

[manueljenkin]

5 hours ago, MarkusBarkus said:

@manueljenkin et al: To up the ante on this discussion a bit, I just finished a USB test using Shunyata's Omega USB.
 

I had a very limited opportunity to borrow one for a demo. This is a $3,500.00 USB cable (plus 5K retainer for the divorce attorney), so stop reading now or grab your air-distress bag if you get queasy during take-off and landing. 

I listened in two systems (actually, I'm still listening at home), one a friend's Benchmark Audio system on Monitor Audio speakers, and my own.

 

In both systems, adding the cable yielded an audible change. IMO it was also a net-positive change. My friend agrees about his system (he did not hear mine).
 

More separation among instruments. More momentum and drive to the music. Increased liveliness. Very nice.

Time to rewatch Ocean's 11 for tips on planning a casino heist. <Joke>

Lol thanks. I'm happy that these things exist but way out of the range of what I can pay 😅.

[richard_crl032]

Oh no ..  trying to playback not all 1 and 0 are the same .. better engineered solution are often complex and expensive to get rhe 1 and 0 as rectangle shaped as possible in simple terms. How about noise etc. from ssd and hdd ?

 

Capacitance, inductance, loss etc. are also real in cables.

 

Even ripping quality in digital format varies.

 

Anyway, glad you believe you can or have accurate recording playback but from my experience, even the 1kk full FM accoustic system heard many times while unbelievably dynamic, details, surreal, who knows or care if accurate.

 

Cheers.

[manueljenkin]

4 minutes ago, richard_crl032 said:

Oh no ..  trying to playback not all 1 and 0 are the same .. better engineered solution are often complex and expensive to get rhe 1 and 0 as rectangle shaped as possible in simple terms. How about noise etc. from ssd and hdd ?

 

Capacitance, inductance, loss etc. are also real in cables.

 

Even ripping quality in digital format varies.

 

Anyway, glad you believe you can or have accurate recording playback but from my experience, even the 1kk full FM accoustic system heard many times while unbelievably dynamic, details, surreal, who knows or care if accurate.

 

Cheers.

Oh yes I do optimize my system for low access noise. I use one of these tools - junilabs audio player and file optimizer, wtfplay live distro, xxhighend or playpcmwin. Apart from xxhighend the rest are free, so anyone could give it a try.

 

Cable comes next to pc optimization for me.

[fas42]

18 minutes ago, richard_crl032 said:

Oh no ..  trying to playback not all 1 and 0 are the same .. better engineered solution are often complex and expensive to get rhe 1 and 0 as rectangle shaped as possible in simple terms. How about noise etc. from ssd and hdd ?

 

The digital signal while being shipped around in the circuits has different qualities, in the sense of what one can measure in the analogue world - yes, shape of the steps, jitter, noise, etc ... but all these can be cancelled by simply regenerating the digital signal where it counts, at the converter, to as perfect a degree as one likes, to suit the behaviour requirements of the DAC.

 

Quote

 

Capacitance, inductance, loss etc. are also real in cables.

 

Even ripping quality in digital format varies.

 

It's not straightforward C, L, or R that does the damage - the real problems are parasitic, non-linear, static charge behaviours; hard to measure, quantify - and deal with ...

 

Quote

 

Anyway, glad you believe you can or have accurate recording playback but from my experience, even the 1kk full FM accoustic system heard many times while unbelievably dynamic, details, surreal, who knows or care if accurate.

 

Cheers.

 

"Unbelievably dynamic, details, surreal" is the true nature of recordings - as you say, usually only available from the "best" setups ... but it shows what's there to be drawn out. And, yes, that FM Acoustic setup was accurate.

[richard_crl032]

And then there is this conrad johnson setup with midrange that much more "palpable" than the FM Acoustics setup .. what is accurate ?

 

None ...

 

But I digressed ... usb cables do sound different and at certain level of resolution, it is preference and matching .. tuning your system.

 

Cheers 

[fas42]

3 minutes ago, richard_crl032 said:

And then there is this conrad johnson setup with midrange that much more "palpable" than the FM Acoustics setup .. what is accurate ?

 

How one tests this is to try 'difficult' recordings - if the midrange of the conrad johnson combo is not a true representation of what's on the recording, then it will highly likely be caught out; and make the replay somewhat unpleasant, or even unlistenable ... if one can detect a characteristic that comes through on every recording, to some degree, then the 'signature' of the rig is intruding - and the playback is not accurate.

 

[richard_crl032]

43 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

How one tests this is to try 'difficult' recordings - if the midrange of the conrad johnson combo is not a true representation of what's on the recording, then it will highly likely be caught out; and make the replay somewhat unpleasant, or even unlistenable ... if one can detect a characteristic that comes through on every recording, to some degree, then the 'signature' of the rig is intruding - and the playback is not accurate.

 

 

And there is Mark Levison and Krell sounding totally different and none of their fans will say theirs is not accurate.

 

Cheers.

[jon2020]

I have compared the Oyaide 5S and Shunyata alpha usb cables in my system. What makes the Shunyata sound better? For me, it is the dramatic reduction in noise and distortion which  I did not know were there with the Oyaide until the switch.

 

2 hours ago, fas42 said:

 And the question here is, why ... ?? If adding a certain cable "makes it better" then what's it actually doing? Adding 'nice' distortion', subtracting unpleasant distortion; compensating for less than decent engineering somewhere in the rig ... ... what??

 

I had enjoyed the Oyaide 5S very much until the Shunyata revealed its limitations. In addition, for a digital cable, music sounds much less "stepped", much more analog-like, with the Shunyata. 

 

So by simply comparing, if another cable does not improve SQ, then just keep what you already have. 

[richard_crl032]

1 hour ago, jon2020 said:

I have compared the Oyaide 5S and Shunyata alpha usb cables in my system. What makes the Shunyata sound better? For me, it is the dramatic reduction in noise and distortion which  I did not know were there with the Oyaide until the switch.

 

 

I had enjoyed the Oyaide 5S very much until the Shunyata revealed its limitations. In addition, for a digital cable, music sounds much less "stepped", much more analog-like, with the Shunyata. 

 

So by simply comparing, if another cable does not improve SQ, then just keep what 

 

Usd1.1k ... I am quite sure it is better than Oyaide 5S or at least matches your system better.

 

But maybe my system is not stepped enough and need Oyaide 5S ... like tube based system fans liking solid core silver and not 8N copper.

 

Cheers.

[jon2020]

1 hour ago, richard_crl032 said:

 

Usd1.1k ... I am quite sure it is better than Oyaide 5S or at least matches your system better.

 

But maybe my system is not stepped enough and need Oyaide 5S ... like tube based system fans liking solid core silver and not 8N copper.

 

Cheers.

If you do come across an opportunity to compare the Oyaide with the Shunyata in your system, do let us know the outcome.

Cheers!

[xyzzy1]

18 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

Which is slightly different from what I aim for - if you're trying to 'understand' what the musicians are doing, and want to focus very strongly on how they are going about their craft, then it is fair game to distort what you hear - let's say a drummer listens to a track with the intention of picking up precisely what his fellow musician is doing; to do this he may play with DSP to mold the sound, so that the drum kit instruments cut through better - he doesn't want to hear 'accurate' sound; he wants to hear more intensely what he really wants to hear.

 

Personally, I just want to hear what's on the record - get that spot on, and the result is immensely satisfying, IME. Then 'enhancing' the sound for extra oomph is a step that can be taken next, if it really seems worthwhile for a particular recording, is how I see it.

 

 

There is always status in expensive stuff, which usually has the looks to make the impact ... but in audio, that has little chance of guaranteeing an excellent standard of performance ...

 

 

 

On your note on "If you're trying to 'understand' what the musicians are doing...." I think we are saying the same thing and why I used the term "artistry of the musicians" which means anything the musicians (& producers) do I want to hear what they intended including pre and post work to the recorded sound.

 

However, I will add, if I am going to do a critical auditory critique of an audio system or component I will pick recordings which are comprised of sounds that I have a reference for in real life like unamplified human voice and unamplified acoustical instruments.  There are no shortage of natural sounding recordings though they are much harder to come by with more modern music where the panacea now is to distort the voice and instruments and add sonic effects. 

 

So I trust that if an audio system can do well with acoustic sounds it will also do well with effects that have been added. Of course I would also listen to effects laden music, they are fun after all, but would not be a big part my criteria for selecting an audio component.

[xyzzy1]

16 hours ago, richard_crl032 said:

 

And there is Mark Levison and Krell sounding totally different and none of their fans will say theirs is not accurate.

 

Cheers.

 

Much agreed (and in my case its Pass Labs.. :-) ). This is the fun of this hobby. There is no gear that gets 100% right and we have choices based on our preferences. Thats where our discussions should be!  In the end perhaps until we get to some level of holographic sound (like a Star Trek holodeck!) we will always have to choose between flavors and what we like.

[AnotherSpin]

On 5/7/2021 at 8:10 AM, jon2020 said:

Totally disagree. You have no idea what you are talking about. You need to give this issue a rest as it seems to be gnawing at you to no end, just to prove your point which is simply wrong at so many levels. 

 

And what gnaws me, according to your well-informed opinion? Could you elaborate more?

[jon2020]

3 hours ago, AnotherSpin said:

 

And what gnaws me, according to your well-informed opinion? Could you elaborate more?

 

What gnaws you so much are the believers of the well-informed opinion that cables do make a difference, to such an extent that you have this gnawing need to go around persuading believers not to believe their own ears. :)

[richard_crl032]

4 hours ago, xyzzy1 said:

 

Much agreed (and in my case its Pass Labs.. :-) ). This is the fun of this hobby. There is no gear that gets 100% right and we have choices based on our preferences. Thats where our discussions should be!  In the end perhaps until we get to some level of holographic sound (like a Star Trek holodeck!) we will always have to choose between flavors and what we like.

 

Aaah .. pass labs are nice !

 

What I would have like to have in my house will be big Spectral from various systems that I have auditioned.

 

I do covet resolution, low noise to allow such resolution and clarity to come through as well as speed for it to sound dynamic .. and a bit of warmth for less listener fatigue. Takes too much $ unfortunately that I cannot afford and the room of course.

 

Cheers.

[sgr]

Spectral and Pass are definitely great Amps. But if you’re looking for amps and preamps you should find away to audition the CODA Technologies #8 and #16 amplifiers and the 0.7x and CS preamplifiers. 
 

CODA doesn’t get lots of press but they deserve to be ranked among the best at prices for below the competition. 
 

I’ve owned or auditioned many of the great names including ARC, Levinson, and Krell and the CODA electronics are worthy to be ranked among them. And yes CODA does all the things many audiophiles value, but it’s the musicality and ability to transport one to a studio or event realistically that makes me enjoy listening to them so much. 

[richard_crl032]

55 minutes ago, sgr said:

Spectral and Pass are definitely great Amps. But if you’re looking for amps and preamps you should find away to audition the CODA Technologies #8 and #16 amplifiers and the 0.7x and CS preamplifiers. 
 

CODA doesn’t get lots of press but they deserve to be ranked among the best at prices for below the competition. 
 

I’ve owned or auditioned many of the great names including ARC, Levinson, and Krell and the CODA electronics are worthy to be ranked among them. And yes CODA does all the things many audiophiles value, but it’s the musicality and ability to transport one to a studio or event realistically that makes me enjoy listening to them so much. 

 

Just read about coda as it indeed heard of this brand in my last 20 yrs into hifi but not well known in Singapore too ...

 

Interesting to know that coda had built or maybe still builds amps from previous Innersound and now Sanders Magtech that I have in my system ..  even using similar mosfet component but to Sander's design of course that make sense to me.

 

Sanders looks better in my setup unlike coda but thanks for the recommendation for me to know more about coda and also Sanders.

 

Cheers 

 

Richard

 

PS: only silver for lower 2 racks with all modded blue led, including my bel canton fm1 tuner

[MarkusBarkus]

@richard_crl032 very nice looking set-up. What footers are you using under the Salon2s? Cheers...

Mark

[sgr]

Looks very nice indeed. Very clean and sparkling setup. I owned Salons for a couple of years. I have a friend with the new ones. They are fantastic speakers. 
I can’t tell if the black space is a rug or just a blackout. You might benefit with some wool carpet on the floor in front of your speakers. You might be getting some reflection bounce. I understand you might like the clean look better. Couldn’t blame you. But I think you’d hear a difference with the sophisticated rig you’ve built. 

[richard_crl032]

1 hour ago, MarkusBarkus said:

@richard_crl032 very nice looking set-up. What footers are you using under the Salon2s? Cheers...

Mark

Hi Mark,

 

Tks ... just the stock spikes with some unknown hard rubber footers from local hifi shop that allow me to push them around ... they look no different from those in hardware shops. 😄

 

Sorry that I cannot help to share more 🙏.

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

[richard_crl032]

57 minutes ago, sgr said:

Looks very nice indeed. Very clean and sparkling setup. I owned Salons for a couple of years. I have a friend with the new ones. They are fantastic speakers. 
I can’t tell if the black space is a rug or just a blackout. You might benefit with some wool carpet on the floor in front of your speakers. You might be getting some reflection bounce. I understand you might like the clean look better. Couldn’t blame you. But I think you’d hear a difference with the sophisticated rig you’ve built. 

Hi sgr,

 

Unfortunately the black space is a hard and reflective 75" samsung Series 9 tv ... this is the living room for the family.

 

Indeed some carpets will be nice but I stretched this far with the "investment" as it is still a living room and I am already very happy with wife for letting me put up the diffusers.

 

I am in Singapore and carpets are not really not perferred with aircon switched on only on rare occasions.

 

Why I chose the Salon 2 is that the bass port fires down to allow me to push them back against the wall .. not some 6-7ft into the 20ft wall-wall space. And I am done with dual REL subs setup.

 

My system is always switched on except putting tube pre on standby cos watching TV or the family sleeps and hence really like the cool Sander Magtech amp .. for the Audible Ilusion L3B tube pre, I bought up loads of tubes directly from Russian webshop, www.gstube.com, to last for the next 10 yrs.

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

[sgr]

Hi Richard,

I wouldn’t change a thing then. Sounds like you’ve got it worked out very well. And great for the wife and kids too. The whole family can enjoy. 
Lucky you. 
As for as I know CODA builds all the Sanders amps and preamps. I know the designer pretty well. Doug is a great guy. They build for a few others too. 
The CODA team used to work with Nelson Pass at Threshold. When Threshold went under Nelson founded Pass Labs and the other part of the team founded CODA Technologies. 
I’ve had Pass Labs in my system before and I greatly prefer the CODA electronics.