USB cable comparisons

[sgr]

I owned that pair at one time. Really fine sound and well constructed. And you’re right about the cables I tried those options too. That combo could really compete with the vest out there. 

[eworkflow]

On 3/24/2019 at 12:59 PM, FelipeRolim said:

 

Your Curious certainly isn't the same Curious I have. Not with that description.

 

To put my 3 cents: I use Oyade Class A and couldn't find anything better (for my particular setup!) upto 3x higher price range. Your comment reminded me what I know for a fact by now: cable influence is not absolute and highly-dependable on dynamic characteristics (and resulted time-smearing of the bit period) of the driver and receiver interface pair (so never on the cable alone). My favorite demo to prove it is to use a good quality USB signal conditioner (such as Wyred Recovery) with an external DAC using (2) DIFFERENT USB cables (for conditioner's input and output) and then hearing audio differences (sometimes dramatic) just by swapping those cables. 

[manueljenkin]

Here are some impressions of the stock cable that came with my apogee groove and the supra USB cable.

 

Transport : Surface Book 2015 running windows 10 64bit

Music player software: winyl 64bit (and few other bass library based players which sound largely identical minor depth differences aside).

DAC: Apogee groove

Amp: Apogee groove, Burson fun with sparkos ss3601.

Headphone : Shure srh1540. (Also tried with hd800, hd700 and urbanite xl all of which resolve less to my ears).

 

The stock cable from apogee:

This is not a bad cable at all (unlike the cable that came with my nx4dsd). It's sturdy, well designed, and even has markings on the body (E318233 PU AWM 2725 80*C 30V KAIBAO). I'll admit I don't understand even a single letter of that but it looks cool anyway. The sound is what I'd call as jack of all trades but master of none. It has a nice weight to the low notes, and fairly good amount of detail. But it lacks ultimate transparency, the weight doesn't look like it comes from perfect reproduction of sound but rather from a slight phase compression. Feels like I'm constantly being bombarded by positive polarity signals a little more than what would be accurate. Staging is fine but again feels mushed in a little, but with binaural is as expansive as ever.

 

Supra USB cable: It takes the exact opposite approach of the apogee stock cable. It does whatever compromises it needs to for extreme detail whoring. It's presentation can be described as laid back bright. Extremely transparent and intense detail. It's somewhat bright sounding. It sounds clean but also has a slight sense of fake cleanliness to it. Compressed voices, violins and especially roughly high passed cymbals can sometimes take an unbearable sheen to them. Forget listening to compressed metal. They feel as if there are knives stabbing your ears. But well processed ones can sound almost angelic on them. Probably the biggest Achilles heel I find for this cable is its lack of weight in the low notes. I hear the low notes, I hear the texture, I hear the pitch discrimination, I hear the layers. But somehow it feels like the bass notes are a bit dry and withdrawn. My srh1540 is very tactile and can actually physically rumble my skull on any good setup I've tried. Somehow this tactility is almost completely lost when using the Supra cable. I hear the rumble and actually hear the difference in pitch even better but somehow it feels less engaging. It sounds "bootleggish" and detailed for lack of a better word. (1.50 is an example of what I'm meaning

Another big downside I have of the Supra is that it doesn't sound as good as the stock cable for binaural music. Clearly something that defines spatial presentation is being altered. I have to say that my expectations of binaural is extremely high and that on a normal scale both the cables sound fine. They just don't sound excellent, the Supra even less so for binaural tracks. These deficits aside the Supra is without a doubt on a much higher technical footing than the stock one. The detail and resolution is much better. For most part all of my listening now happens on the Supra cable since I'm a detail freak even if it has some compromises. I would probably try the curious usb cable someday if I had the cash but I don't.

 

Note : I typically close my eyes when listening to music. Yes opening and closing your eyes can change your perception of sound. So some of the spatial presentation feel might change if you listen with eyes closed but the notes on overall texture, resolution remain unaltered.

 

Tl, dr:

Stock apogee cable : decent resolution, tiny bit closed in, lots of nice heft to the tones.

Supra : fantastic resolution but slightly forced, very sensitive to high pass filters used in recording process, bright and laidback, bass lacks heft and sounds a bit bootleggish.

 

I am looking for an upgrade from the supra now. I want to buy the supra but I don't have necessary funds for it now. I read audiobacon and it looks like chord company's silver cable is a good option. Would like to know other options.

[xyzzy1]

Thanks, good write up on your experience with these cables.
I am quite convinced that various usb cables are not improving sound but rather it’s a competition of which usb cable is less destructive with electrical noise being attenuated and added by each cable due construction and flaws along with noise electrical noise coming from the source. Source noise can cause the usb cable to react badly and make the noise worse. 
 

Have you considered trying a jitterbug or an Ifi iodefender with ifi ipower that can replace the source usb power? These helped quite a bit when I was playing with usb cables. 
 

In the end I moved to using an optical cable which was a significant leap forward in sound quality over any usb combination I tried. 

[Ralf11]

IF different USB cables are really changing the sound then you need a better DAC

 

Optical is the way to go.

[Sal1950]

2 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

IF different USB cables are really changing the sound then you need a better DAC

 

Optical is the way to go.

Absolutely.  Something is going seriously wrong with either the DAC or cable for the sound of  0&1's to change ????

[Blake]

This is obviously a subjective cable comparison thread, where "usb cable believers" share thoughts on subjective sonic impressions of different usb cables. 

 

We have already been through some of the off-topic commentary earlier in this thread.  We have other recent threads where the conceptual, objective/subjective discussion and usb debate is more on-topic (I started such a thread about a week ago).  Pretty please, with sugar on top, can we keep this thread on topic? 

[fas42]

3 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

IF different USB cables are really changing the sound then you need a better DAC

 

Optical is the way to go.

 

This is indeed a good option ... however, in the real world of the current gear available to buy, this may be quite difficult to do. A good workaround is to 'adjust' the cable used, so that its properties happen to be in balance with the weaknesses of the gear it's feeding - this is a bit of "playing with rubber bands to make sure things don't come undone" - very far from an elegant solution, but may actually do the trick in a particular situation.

[Kimo]

3 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

IF different USB cables are really changing the sound then you need a better DAC

 

Optical is the way to go.

I don't know.

 

I just installed a Supra USB cable between the Innuos and the Satie, and noticed the same thing.  As compared with the Belkin Gold USB, the Supra sounds cleaner, but doesn't have the same weight in the bass.  I am not sure that I would call it brighter, but certainly it sounds lighter, or maybe even a bit whiter.   

 

There is less grit, but more detail.

 

I can't tell you which one is better, though I am guessing the Supra is doing something better, since vocals are a little easier to understand.  

 

I am pretty sure the DAC designer is a bigger fan of AES and coaxial, than USB.  The Sony Blu Ray player pretty much sounds the same through 1 meter of Apogee Wyde Eye and 1.5 meters of Belden 1694 into the Satie, and always a little darker than the Innuos, no matter what USB I have tried.

[reverendo]

2 hours ago, Sal1950 said:

Absolutely.  Something is going seriously wrong with either the DAC or cable for the sound of  0&1's to change ????

Hi @Sal1950

We've been down this road, haven't we? Please, just don't. Appreciate it. 👍🏼

Happy Valentines to you, too. 😘

[Sal1950]

14 minutes ago, reverendo said:

Hi @Sal1950

We've been down this road, haven't we? Please, just don't. Appreciate it. 👍🏼

Happy Valentines to you, too. 😘

Sorry but the truth has to come to light on occasion.

The popularity of cable snake oil has made a laughing stock of the audiophile community.

A lie repeated often enough still doesn't make it true.

 

[manueljenkin]

Just wanted to clarify some stuff here.

 

1. I am an electrical engineer and have worked with VLSI chips. I sure know that nothing is as simple as 0 and 1. If it were that simple, you'd have had thunderbolt in 2000, and CPUs reaching 1000GHz (the clock speed is a bad indicator anyway) by now. I sure know what I'm getting into is not out of scientific consideration.

 

2. No I don't need a better DAC. Just because some other DAC has error concealment built into its USB receiver to mask USB errors doesn't make a somewhat transparent DAC bad. It just means it wants me to use a good USB cable and is revealing of things. And yes error concealment is a thing.

 

3. I don't believe in analog cables. Yes, seriously, I don't believe in analog cables. It's well beyond debunked that all changes in analog cables come from load sharing differences, or some bad design in crosstalk. But digital cables are quite complex since we are dealing with pulses in MHz range and reflection, characteristic impedance all play a big role.

 

4. I am less worried about noise from USB link. Data is sent in differential pairing and negates most of the noise issues. Power noise can be a thing which I do plan to try and fix (single board computer with linear 5v supply on USB bus) but it is less related to issues from reflection and transmission loss. The bigger issues are data integrity based, from differences in phase between the two lines (glitch), impedance matching issues (slow load latching or reflections along the lines).

 

4. Thanks for the recommendation in optical. I'll try them if I can but I have my reservations with regards to spdif as a whole - recovering clock from the data, a low power implementation of optical link (bad cheap led = bad transmission). I will give it a shot if I can find a good inexpensive DAC that supports optical and a good optical master hat on a budget.

[fas42]

3 minutes ago, Sal1950 said:

Sorry but the truth has to come to light on occasion.

The popularity of cable snake oil has made a laughing stock of the audiophile community.

A lie repeated often enough still doesn't make it true.

 

 

There's no "lie" involved ... while the engineering of audio gear makes systems susceptible to factors which shouldn't be relevant, there will continue to be a market for variations of things like cables - the market will always reward those who come with 'solutions', even though the concept offends you.

[sgr]

Hi,

Try Acoustic BBQ USB cables. Built by “Grannyring” or Bill Dion which are available on Audiogon and I think he sells through Facebook. 
 

I have his new “Double Smoked” version and it is competitive with some of the best and list expensive for a song. 
 

 

[Kimo]

47 minutes ago, Sal1950 said:

Let the visitors here be enlightened with a taste of reality.

http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/04/measurements-usb-cables-for-dacs.html

This doesn't say that all USB cables sound alike.  

[reverendo]

2 hours ago, Sal1950 said:

Let the visitors here be enlightened with a taste of reality.

http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/04/measurements-usb-cables-for-dacs.html

bye, bye. 😘

[The Computer Audiophile]

I hate to break the news to some of you guys but you aren’t the HiFi or internet police who need to save people from themselves. Stop pissing in the punch bowl at the party where everyone else is enjoying themselves. 

[Sal1950]

 

11 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

IF different USB cables are really changing the sound then you need a better DAC

 

9 hours ago, Sal1950 said:

Absolutely.  Something is going seriously wrong with either the DAC or cable for the sound of  0&1's to change ????

 

4 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I hate to break the news to some of you guys but you aren’t the HiFi or internet police who need to save people from themselves. Stop pissing in the punch bowl at the party where everyone else is enjoying themselves. 
 

Chris, Like every other issue there are two sides to every story.

We don't sensor the MQA threads where people have been continually debating the issues for a number of years now.  Why are we to consider any cable threads off limits to opposing views?  This is more akin to a religious thread that refuses to allow any science based information to upset the believers. when the basic science runs in direct contradiction to subjective believes

 

5 hours ago, Kimo said:

This doesn't say that all USB cables sound alike.  

What does this say to you?

"Conclusion:

No evidence in these tests to suggest that the different USB cables used here with the asynchronous CM6631A USB-to-SPDIF converter, direct asynchronous TEAC UD-501 USB DAC, or adaptive isochronous USB setups should sound different (even though one would expect Cable C to be the worst). Subjectively, listening to music with Cable C through Sennheiser HD800's sounded fine. 

 

No evidence with the J-Test to suggest data-correlated jitter is significantly different between cables. By the way, for a good demonstration of how jitter improves with interface/cable change, look at my post on Transporter-to-Behringer connection with TosLink vs. AES/EBU. Also, remember that my Oppo BDP-105 tests were done with a single 15' USB cable - still better than Cable C in construction :-). "

[firedog]

3 hours ago, Sal1950 said:

 

 

 

Chris, Like every other issue there are two sides to every story.

We don't sensor the MQA threads where people have been continually debating the issues for a number of years now.  Why are we to consider any cable threads off limits to opposing views?  This is more akin to a religious thread that refuses to allow any science based information to upset the believers. when the basic science runs in direct contradiction to subjective believes

 

 

 

Sal, the site had gotten to the point where people who want to compare cables or anything else based on their listening couldn't do it without the thread being taken over by people telling them how ignorant and foolish they are. I don't think there is an issue of censorship here. There is an issue of letting people discuss what they want without them  having to defend themselves.

 

People should be able to have a subjective thread like this one. Do you really think people who are serious hobbyists and who post here have never been exposed to the arguments you are making? I can assure you they have. And they've rejected them.

 

Doesn't matter why. Doesn't matter if they are wrong. They have their approach to the hobby and have a right to discuss it without OT and condescending posts (in their context) constantly interrupting their discussion. They don't need and aren't asking for the type of input you are offering. You may think you are offering them truth and enlightenment. What you are doing in actuality is interrupting their discussion and trying to turn it into something else or even end it. In effect, it's the ultimate rudeness. Even if that isn't the intent.

 

Is there some reason you can't just ignore the thread? Is the world just not able to function without your input on this topic? And more to the point, do you really think anything is being accomplished by your posts? I don't. I don't think anyone is being educated or informed about the topic in a way they weren't before.

 

If the thread really bothers you, then start a thread called "why usb cable comparisons are nonsense" instead of posting here. I'd say it would even be okay if you simply post a link to your opposing thread here and then leave it at that.  You can quote posts from here and rebut them all you want at the opposing thread.

 

And it the subjectivists come and start making OT subjectivist posts at your thread I'd tell them the same thing.

 

 

[Iving]

8 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I hate to break the news to some of you guys but you aren’t the HiFi or internet police who need to save people from themselves. Stop pissing in the punch bowl at the party where everyone else is enjoying themselves. 

 

I know.

It's like joining a knitting circle only to moan constantly that you hate wool.

What's the point unless to take the smile off of people's faces for its own sake: "sociopathy" is an apposite term for that sort of carry on.

Get a life of your own!

unless you cannot or will not

In which case ... changes must come!

[Kimo]

4 hours ago, Sal1950 said:

 

 

 

Chris, Like every other issue there are two sides to every story.

We don't sensor the MQA threads where people have been continually debating the issues for a number of years now.  Why are we to consider any cable threads off limits to opposing views?  This is more akin to a religious thread that refuses to allow any science based information to upset the believers. when the basic science runs in direct contradiction to subjective believes

 

What does this say to you?

"Conclusion:

No evidence in these tests to suggest that the different USB cables used here with the asynchronous CM6631A USB-to-SPDIF converter, direct asynchronous TEAC UD-501 USB DAC, or adaptive isochronous USB setups should sound different (even though one would expect Cable C to be the worst). Subjectively, listening to music with Cable C through Sennheiser HD800's sounded fine. 

 

No evidence with the J-Test to suggest data-correlated jitter is significantly different between cables. By the way, for a good demonstration of how jitter improves with interface/cable change, look at my post on Transporter-to-Behringer connection with TosLink vs. AES/EBU. Also, remember that my Oppo BDP-105 tests were done with a single 15' USB cable - still better than Cable C in construction :-). "

 

It says, "No evidence that the different cables used here should sound different," which has nothing to do with saying every USB sounds identical.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 hour ago, firedog said:

Sal, the site had gotten to the point where people who want to compare cables or anything else based on their listening couldn't do it without the thread being taken over by people telling them how ignorant and foolish they are. I don't think there is an issue of censorship here. There is an issue of letting people discuss what they want without them  having to defend themselves.

 

People should be able to have a subjective thread like this one. Do you really think people who are serious hobbyists and who post here have never been exposed to the arguments you are making? I can assure you they have. And they've rejected them.

 

Doesn't matter why. Doesn't matter if they are wrong. They have their approach to the hobby and have a right to discuss it without OT and condescending posts (in their context) constantly interrupting their discussion. They don't need and aren't asking for the type of input you are offering. You may think you are offering them truth and enlightenment. What you are doing in actuality is interrupting their discussion and trying to turn it into something else or even end it. In effect, it's the ultimate rudeness. Even if that isn't the intent.

 

Is there some reason you can't just ignore the thread? Is the world just not able to function without your input on this topic? And more to the point, do you really think anything is being accomplished by your posts? I don't. I don't think anyone is being educated or informed about the topic in a way they weren't before.

 

If the thread really bothers you, then start a thread called "why usb cable comparisons are nonsense" instead of posting here. I'd say it would even be okay if you simply post a link to your opposing thread here and then leave it at that.  You can quote posts from here and rebut them all you want at the opposing thread.

 

And it the subjectivists come and start making OT subjectivist posts at your thread I'd tell them the same thing.

 

 

Thank you for saving me all the keystrokes. Perfectly said. 

[mourip]

12 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

There's no "lie" involved ... while the engineering of audio gear makes systems susceptible to factors which shouldn't be relevant, there will continue to be a market for variations of things like cables - the market will always reward those who come with 'solutions', even though the concept offends you.

 

Agreed. To this I would like to add:

 

High performing audio is a bit like marriage. You can put two perfectly great people together and have a miserable experience. It is often about synergy and compatibility.

 

Also just because one cannot hear differences between different cables that does not mean that others cannot.

 

And finally if making a cable was as simple as following "currently understood and accepted" theory then there would probably be only one cable manufacturer and we would all own that same cable.

[Iving]

24 minutes ago, mourip said:

High performing audio is a bit like marriage. You can put two perfectly great people together and have a miserable experience. It is often about synergy and compatibility.

 

... indeed - alternatively put a couple of rescue dogs (so to speak) together to discover something amazing [gestalt]

 

24 minutes ago, mourip said:

"currently understood and accepted" theory

 

^ this - exactly. Applies as much to psychology as physics. The gob-smacking vanity of unbridled and indisciplined Scientism. Tut

[manueljenkin]

Honesty, I wasn't expecting such a warm welcome in here. I've been to multiple audio forums and almost all of them (few servers aside) have been extremely hostile with mostly cancerous people who think they know everything (even if they don't know anything beyond surface level abstraction) and everyone else's impressions are placebo. Kudos to the mods for setting things straight!.

I've had bad memories being harassed for stating issues with measurements (they use measurements to pass judgement on gear they have never heard and make their recommendations) or legitimately showing with measurements that different music players in windows sound different, based on library and function calls used.