Allan F Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 On 8/6/2018 at 1:11 PM, barrows said: We have to be very careful about using cables as a fix for problems originating elsewhere, it is much better to fix the actual source of the problem than to cover it up with a lower resolution cable. Very true. Put another way, cables should not be used as tone controls. "Relax, it's only hi-fi. There's never been a hi-fi emergency." - Roy Hall "Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - William Bruce Cameron Link to comment
barrows Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 42 minutes ago, Allan F said: Very true. Put another way, cables should not be used as tone controls. Yeah, but it would expand the terms a bit beyond "tone" alone, perhaps... For example, some systems express transient edges "perfectly" with little to no overshoot, or ringing, or smearing-for a system like this only an accurate USB cable will do, as anything else may dull the transient response. But a system which overemphasizes transients, well... SO/ROON/HQPe: DSD 512-Sonore opticalModuleDeluxe-Signature Rendu optical with Well Tempered Clock--DIY DSC-2 DAC with SC Pure Clock--DIY Purifi Amplifier-Focus Audio FS888 speakers-JL E 112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY EventHorizon AC cables, Iconoclast XLR & speaker cables, Synergistic Purple Fuses, Spacetime system clarifiers. ISOAcoustics Oreas footers. SONORE computer audio | opticalRendu | ultraRendu | microRendu | Signature Rendu SE | Accessories | Software | Link to comment
Allan F Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 33 minutes ago, barrows said: Yeah, but it would expand the terms a bit beyond "tone" alone, perhaps... For example, some systems express transient edges "perfectly" with little to no overshoot, or ringing, or smearing-for a system like this only an accurate USB cable will do, as anything else may dull the transient response. But a system which overemphasizes transients, well... I don't disagree, but I was referring to cables in general, not USB cables in particular. barrows 1 "Relax, it's only hi-fi. There's never been a hi-fi emergency." - Roy Hall "Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - William Bruce Cameron Link to comment
adamaley Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 USB cable comparisons, please. Link to comment
eworkflow Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 I am interested in USB cable topic mainly because, almost identically to reading popular science articles on quantum physics, I never stop being interested in learning new things not necessarily knowing how and why they happen. Not to provoke certain people here, I encounter a disturbingly high number of people who promote all-binary zero-one-zero explanation as to why digital cables are not important to sound or video quality (God forbid, bringing sometimes a printing example). For the sake of common sense, let's keep repeating one important fact: the audio effects of digital audio cables have nothing to do with the zero-one-zero sequence of binary signal stream: that (just like during printing and even in the case no-error-correction of every USB interface) remain always the same. What counts for audio, however, is when exactly every zero-one-zero transition happens because the formal audio tests prove that even 10-microsecond time smearing (when continually present) will be detected by a normally sensitive human hearing as a sound's timbre, transition, and/or detail distortion. Additionally, since the most non-linear element of audio path is the last one: speakers (including room acoustics) and headphones, what we all are practically doing is trying to correct quite fundamental nonlinearities with quite limited nonlinearities of cables. We might be lucky to get a quite optimal match. In some cases, similar to effects of bi-wiring for certain speakers (involving analog cables, of course), a specific characteristic of a digital cable may have no effect or a positive or a negative effect in different audio paths. In short, our ears listening to our system are the only reliable judges we must listen to. Anybody relying on somebody else only should have his/her brain checked. Link to comment
HumanMedia Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 Has anyone tried the Chord Shawline USB cable? Impresssions? The low end Chord USB did very well in the HiFi news comparisons, and the second from top Chord USB also did very well. This new shawline has come out since and is priced and positioned between the two. I can’t evaluate but I would love to know what people’s expriences are with this cable. Anyone? Link to comment
juanitox Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 if , there is so much difference between USB cables , usb decrapiffier, USB isolator , then let's just ask the Dac manufacturer to bring a better digital interface ( by air, wifi , ethernet etc..) and not just upgrading their usb interface . Ralf11 1 PC audio /Roon + HQPLAYER / HOLO Spring 2 / / DIY AD1 SET tube amp / DIY Altec 2 way horn Speaker Link to comment
chrisc Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 These already exist. However, hitherto, only USB and ethernet can transfer DSD signals from a computer to a DAC I'm pretty sure that if a DAC manufacturer invented a better interface, his sales would rocket. There are improvements all the time, but R&D in chip manufacturing costs plenty and sales are not in great quantity The Cape Town Hi-Fi Club. Achieve astonishing sound Listening stuff: Mercury Pi2, Devialet 440CI, B&W DB1, LF-8ba, 2 x Dachshunds Link to comment
Doak Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 3 hours ago, chrisc said: These already exist. However, hitherto, only USB and ethernet can transfer DSD signals from a computer to a DAC I'm pretty sure that if a DAC manufacturer invented a better interface, his sales would rocket. There are improvements all the time, but R&D in chip manufacturing costs plenty and sales are not in great quantity I2S connection via HDMI cable also possesses these capabilities. Doak's Audio System Link to comment
Popular Post barrows Posted August 12, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted August 12, 2018 8 hours ago, juanitox said: if , there is so much difference between USB cables , usb decrapiffier, USB isolator , then let's just ask the Dac manufacturer to bring a better digital interface ( by air, wifi , ethernet etc..) and not just upgrading their usb interface . There is nothing "wrong" with the USB interface for audio (speaking of async USB)! In fact, USB when implemented well, can be a "perfect", virtually jitter free interface, and it is capable of the highest data rates including PCM 768 and DSD 512 and even DSD 1024. That there is something "wrong" with USB for audio is a myth. All interfaces have their strengths and weaknesses. SPDIF, in particular, is very difficult to get good performance out of. That many audiophiles will go to extreme lengths to improve the performance does not say anything about the USB interface, it does say something about audiophiles though. Audiophiles will use specialized cables to improve performance for all connections, including power cables. Sal1950, Allan F and johndoe21ro 3 SO/ROON/HQPe: DSD 512-Sonore opticalModuleDeluxe-Signature Rendu optical with Well Tempered Clock--DIY DSC-2 DAC with SC Pure Clock--DIY Purifi Amplifier-Focus Audio FS888 speakers-JL E 112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY EventHorizon AC cables, Iconoclast XLR & speaker cables, Synergistic Purple Fuses, Spacetime system clarifiers. ISOAcoustics Oreas footers. SONORE computer audio | opticalRendu | ultraRendu | microRendu | Signature Rendu SE | Accessories | Software | Link to comment
eworkflow Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 Since this thread is about USB cable experiences, it is important not to overgeneralize it, however, just to express opinion which is directly affecting this thread, it is worth mentioning that USB is indeed capable of transferring a large amount of time-sensitive data but delivery of each bit is not guaranteed because, internally, it has no error checking capability: no ACK signal is being sent, late data is as good as no data and a drop of data is prioritized over a delay & forced re-transmission. In short, the large speed feature of the USB interface might be (under certain conditions) the weakest point when affecting DAC decoding function that follows it. This is somewhat similar to the fact that a street hydrant is impossible to be used as a burette in spite of the fact it's capable of delivering a lot of drops. No follow-up to this paragraph, please, to maintain sanity here. LOL. To contribute to this topic directly I would like to share my two separate experiences when comparing USB cables driving external DACs: a) A cable was achieving a positive vs negative effect when the vacuum tube model was changed in the preamp; b) A cable was achieving a positive vs negative effect when the speaker was bi-wired. In short, not always the same USB cable affects different systems the same way. Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 there is an (old) thread I started on interfaces per se - no traction tho Link to comment
Sal1950 Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 23 hours ago, barrows said: That many audiophiles will go to extreme lengths to improve the performance does not say anything about the USB interface, it does say something about audiophiles though. Audiophiles will use specialized cables to improve performance for all connections, including power cables. They hear exactly what they expect to hear. Deride and refuse to set up bias controlled DBT listening tests, and imagine the most ridiculous of results. Nothing to be learned there. Jiffi32, reverendo, HumanMedia and 5 others 1 7 "The gullibility of audiophiles is what astonishes me the most, even after all these years. How is it possible, how did it ever happen, that they trust fairy-tale purveyors and mystic gurus more than reliable sources of scientific information?" Peter Aczel - The Audio Critic R.I.P. MQA 2014-2023: Hyped product thanks to uneducated, uncritical advocates & captured press. Link to comment
Popular Post m3lraaHnevetS Posted August 13, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted August 13, 2018 3 hours ago, Sal1950 said: They hear exactly what they expect to hear. Deride and refuse to set up bias controlled DBT listening tests, and imagine the most ridiculous of results. Nothing to be learned there. Trolololo Allan F, Albrecht, johndoe21ro and 1 other 1 2 1 Pink Faun Streamer —> Pink Faun DAC --> Ayre AX5 --> Paradigm S8 Link to comment
Popular Post xyzzy1 Posted August 14, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted August 14, 2018 20 hours ago, Sal1950 said: They hear exactly what they expect to hear. Deride and refuse to set up bias controlled DBT listening tests, and imagine the most ridiculous of results. Nothing to be learned there. Certainly not for you. Any particular reason you keep posting here? Is your “minds made up” life that boring? look&listen and Teresa 2 Link to comment
christoph Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 1 hour ago, xyzzy1 said: Certainly not for you. Any particular reason you keep posting here? Is your “minds made up” life that boring? There is only one way to deal with this: Don't feed the troll ? look&listen 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Allan F Posted August 14, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted August 14, 2018 Doak and Jiffi32 2 "Relax, it's only hi-fi. There's never been a hi-fi emergency." - Roy Hall "Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - William Bruce Cameron Link to comment
adamaley Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 Saving this one for future use. Lol. Link to comment
Qhwoeprktiyns Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 On 8/12/2018 at 7:14 PM, barrows said: There is nothing "wrong" with the USB interface for audio (speaking of async USB)! In fact, USB when implemented well, can be a "perfect", virtually jitter free interface, and it is capable of the highest data rates including PCM 768 and DSD 512 and even DSD 1024. That there is something "wrong" with USB for audio is a myth. All interfaces have their strengths and weaknesses. SPDIF, in particular, is very difficult to get good performance out of. That many audiophiles will go to extreme lengths to improve the performance does not say anything about the USB interface, it does say something about audiophiles though. Audiophiles will use specialized cables to improve performance for all connections, including power cables. There are some issues with USB. It carries noise (either through the 5v line, if it is used, or through the ground). This noise cannot be completely eliminated within the DAC. Then there is the noise generated by the circuits used to handle the usb signal within the DAC. This noise can disrupt clocks and DAC chips. So in theory you are right, but in practice the sensitive circuits within the DAC are not immune to various interferences generated from use of USB. That audio manufacturers don't say this or know how to handle it (in spite of their claims) does not mean it is not there... When the day comes that DACs can be truly immune from the source then audiophiles will stop worrying about cables! Superdad 1 Link to comment
zettelsm Posted August 15, 2018 Share Posted August 15, 2018 6 hours ago, adamaley said: Saving this one for future use. Lol. Here’s one of my favorites on the subject — the lonely life of a troll: Jiffi32 1 VPI-HW40 Anniversary turntable, Grado Aeon3 cartridge; Teres turntable, VPI Fatboy gimbal, Dynavector XV1-S, Lyra Helikon mono; Taiko Audio Extreme server, dCS Vivaldi DAC, Upsampler Plus and Clock, Cybershaft OP21 Reference Clock; Playback Designs Pinot ADC; D'Agostino Momentum M400 amplifiers, Momentum HD preamp, Momentum phono stage; Wilson Audio Alexx speakers, 2X3 SVS SB16 Ultra subwoofers; Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR & Typhon, Shunyata Sigma NR & Alpha NR power cords, Sigma interconnects, digital and speaker cables; Stillpoints ESS grid system rack; Stillpoints Ultras and Ultra 5s, component stands and cones under everything, ASC Tube Traps . . . and lots and lots of music. Link to comment
Veovis Posted August 15, 2018 Share Posted August 15, 2018 13 hours ago, hopkins said: There are some issues with USB. It carries noise (either through the 5v line, if it is used, or through the ground). This noise cannot be completely eliminated within the DAC. Then there is the noise generated by the circuits used to handle the usb signal within the DAC. This noise can disrupt clocks and DAC chips. So in theory you are right, but in practice the sensitive circuits within the DAC are not immune to various interferences generated from use of USB. That audio manufacturers don't say this or know how to handle it (in spite of their claims) does not mean it is not there... When the day comes that DACs can be truly immune from the source then audiophiles will stop worrying about cables! Good post. I have aways been disappointed with the USB interface for audio although in theory it should have some advantages over S/Pdif and AES. Only by stripping a cheap USB cable and connect a linear 5v PS to it have I reached a point where Audirvana and USB can compare with the SQ of my streamer with AES into the same DAC. Link to comment
barrows Posted August 15, 2018 Share Posted August 15, 2018 19 hours ago, hopkins said: There are some issues with USB. It carries noise (either through the 5v line, if it is used, or through the ground). This noise cannot be completely eliminated within the DAC. Then there is the noise generated by the circuits used to handle the usb signal within the DAC. This noise can disrupt clocks and DAC chips. So in theory you are right, but in practice the sensitive circuits within the DAC are not immune to various interferences generated from use of USB. That audio manufacturers don't say this or know how to handle it (in spite of their claims) does not mean it is not there... When the day comes that DACs can be truly immune from the source then audiophiles will stop worrying about cables! Yes, of course. and the same can be said of ANY interface, this is my point. There is nothing "especially bad" about USB, and in fact, there are many very good things about USB: That it is asynchronous and the DAC clock can be the master, for one example. Now, the source of the USB signal can certainly be a problem, especially if one expects to use a standard computer as a source, but that is not the fault of the USB interface. If one took an SPDIF connection direct from a standard computer the same problems would arise (actually they would be much worse, as with SPDIF the clock in the computer would become the master, yuk!). I would suggest that the source matters the most, and it is not the interface which is THE problem (with the caveat that everything matters). Indeed, i was not attempting to make any comment RE whether using high end cables was "bad" or "good", I myself (see signature) prefer to use high performance high end cables for both USB and analog signals (including AC power, but I usually prefer DIY cables there). The point was to say that audiophiles will use high end cables regardless of the interface: USB, SPDIF, I2S, etc does not matter, an audiophile will almost always use a carefully selected high end cable for linking components together. Again, the desire for a high end cable to link components does not indicate that there is "something wrong" with USB. SO/ROON/HQPe: DSD 512-Sonore opticalModuleDeluxe-Signature Rendu optical with Well Tempered Clock--DIY DSC-2 DAC with SC Pure Clock--DIY Purifi Amplifier-Focus Audio FS888 speakers-JL E 112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY EventHorizon AC cables, Iconoclast XLR & speaker cables, Synergistic Purple Fuses, Spacetime system clarifiers. ISOAcoustics Oreas footers. SONORE computer audio | opticalRendu | ultraRendu | microRendu | Signature Rendu SE | Accessories | Software | Link to comment
Popular Post Jud Posted August 15, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted August 15, 2018 Back to experiences with various USB cables - this has been a pleasant thread for a long time, and other topics can be discussed elsewhere.... BigAlMc, Jiffi32, Blake and 1 other 4 One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
Sal1950 Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 On 8/14/2018 at 9:33 AM, xyzzy1 said: Certainly not for you. Any particular reason you keep posting here? Is your “minds made up” life that boring? You want to learn about cables, but never at the cost that all of your "minds made up" beliefs might be in error and that you've wasted thousands of dollars. Just keep reinforcing each others expectation bias induced hearing delusions and patting each other on the back for the golden ears you possess and the deep pockets you can use to out spend the next guy. BLAH, LOL There's no path here that will lead to any advancement in audio's SOTA sound. Doak, mansr and numlog 1 2 "The gullibility of audiophiles is what astonishes me the most, even after all these years. How is it possible, how did it ever happen, that they trust fairy-tale purveyors and mystic gurus more than reliable sources of scientific information?" Peter Aczel - The Audio Critic R.I.P. MQA 2014-2023: Hyped product thanks to uneducated, uncritical advocates & captured press. Link to comment
adamaley Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 Does anyone have any impressions on the Goebel USB cable? Link to comment
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