LUMIN - Audiophile Network Music Player

[Cebolla]

16 hours ago, Dan.B said:

I've had a Lumin T1 for a few years now, originally running minimserver, then moved over to Roon.  For over a year now I've been having issues with the T1 stopping playback randomly, detailed ad nauseum here:

 

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/random-playback-stoppage/34042

 

Eventually after quite a bit of back and forth, Roon made some software changes and says everything is fixed on their end.  While better, I still get the random stoppages.  Roon staff thinks it has to do with my router (Unifi USG) and how it handles Broadcast/Multicast Traffic.  This is now being discussed here:

 

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/playback-is-experiencing-randomly-stoppages/52662

16 hours ago, Dan.B said:

1 - Any Lumin/Roon users using a Unifi USG?  Any special settings relative to Broadcast/Multicast Traffic? I recently enabled IGMP Snooping, so we'll see what that does.

2 - Any other thoughts would be appreciated!

 

 

Disabling IGMP Snooping is usually the recommendation for routers that are suspected of being too aggresive with their filtering of multicast - IGMP Snooping is used to monitor multicast traffic in order work out where it's not needed on the network, so apply the appropriate filter. So if IGMP Snooping is already disabled, enabling it is unlikely to allow already blocked multicast traffic through.

 

Interesting that a multicast traffic mishandling problem in a router apparently manifests itself as random stoppages during playback with Roon's RAAT network protocol. This shouldn't be the case if you were using the Lumin to stream from a UPnP/DLNA media server, such as MinimServer. UPnP/DLNA does use multicast, but only for device discovery. So if there were a problem with multicast, the effect would be for the Lumin controller app to occasionaly randomly not be able to find the Lumin and/or MinimServer. Once you start playing, playback should continue regardless.

 

[Dan.B]

15 hours ago, wklie said:

@Dan.B please verify playback by MinimServer instead of Roon, using Lumin app in repeat play mode.  This way this hardware path from the DS413 to the T1 is checked.

 

I have a (possibly faulty) D-Link switch under my desk that needs to be power cycled every few months, otherwise it'll behave abnormally.  This reminds me of:

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/roon-losing-connection-with-asus-ac5300-solved-faulty-switch-modified-router-settings/54158/22?u=wklie

 

@wklie

Thanks fir the feedback.  I was thinking the same on running the Lumin direct from minimserver to get Roon out of the loop.  That is in progress as of yesterday afternoon and was still running this morning when I got up, which would be unheard of for Roon to run that long.  Will confirm when I get home and that'll be 24+ hrs.

 

@Cebolla

 

Thanks for the feedback.  So far it looks like minimserver is running everything fine.  I think I ran this way a while back, but I forget and am running the above test to confirm.

 

[Cebolla]

Thinking about this properly, I don't understand why your Roon Labs support contact thinks the Lumin disconnecting from the network has anything to do with his initial suspicion of multicast traffic being blocked by the router resulting in the Roon Core Server failing to communicate with the Lumin's built-in Roon End Point and playback stopping.

 

The Lumin should remain connected to the network if multicast is being blocked. If anything it's the opposite, ie, multicast traffic 'flooding' a receiving device, that can cause problems leading it to disconnect from the network!

 

Certainly, if there are no disconnects with the Lumin operating in its main OpenHome renderer mode streaming from MinimServer, then the suspicion falls on its built-in Roon End Point. I'd suspect this multicast issue is a red herring, if the Lumin app doesn't have any problems seeing either the Lumin or MinimServer.

 

@wklie, could an internal failure of its Roon End Point cause the Lumin to disconnect from the network, leading to the Roon End Point being restarted and subsequent reconnection of the Lumin to the network?

[wklie]

@Cebolla this is hard to say since I've not heard of another similar case from our customers before.  If there is any "fault" with the network part of Roon RAAT, it would affect far more people across Roon Ready products from different brands.

 

@Dan.B If playback from MinimServer continues perfectly for 24 hours, then Lumin network hardware has no defect.  Please see if it's possible to connect the Lumin directly to the router, bypassing the switch and do some Roon tests.  Also check whether your existing router and/or switch has a Flow Control setting - it caused problems for many Roon users, more so than IGMP snooping (which should usually be disabled).

 

If that's not possible, please purchase Netgear GS105 (5-port USD35) or GS108 (8-port) or Cisco SG11224NA Compact (24-port USD97) to replace the D-Link switch, and change the Ethernet cable between the switch and the Lumin as well.  The D-Link switch must be offline for your Roon tests.  (Not saying this is likely to solve the problem you have, but between changing the router and changing the switch as a next step, changing the switch is far easier and usually cheaper.)

[One and a half]

@Dan.B, the first link in your post is missing (Roon says private, the other link is working).

 

The screenshots show the Lumin and the Canon Printer disconnecting from the router, which can rule out the printer or the Lumin alone, so it's not the hosts, unless there's some silly power saving nonsense that kicks in now and again that's set for the Lumin or the Canon Printer.

 

How old is the switch?

 

I had a venerable GS108 for like 10 years something, then one day dropped out hosts also in a random fashion, but it always the same port. Swapped over a port and was fine until it dropped out something else. Another switch, the all plastic variety el cheapo $29.99 CHN manufacture type just lasted a couple of years and did the same thing, disconnecting hosts. 

 

I would have thought a simple device like a switch would last a lot longer than the examples above, but reliability and price are often inversely proportional aren't they. 

 

As @wklie suggests, try replacing the switch with a new one and avoid using the old PSU. 

[wklie]

13 minutes ago, One and a half said:

I would have thought a simple device like a switch would last a lot longer than the examples above, but reliability and price are often inversely proportional aren't they.  

 

In our company we had two commercial grade (i.e. expensive) switches failed in the last few years.  I also have an unstable one under my desk.  I now believe that switches fail more than most people expect them to.  From time to time Roon forum members also reported they had to replace the switches to get things working again.

[Dan.B]

@Cebolla @wklie @One and a half

 

Thank you all for thinking through this.

 

Everything is playing along fine this evening, no issues at all, so that's 30+ hrs on MinimServer.

 

The switch is old, probably 8-10 yrs.  I just ordered the Cisco 24 port from Amazon, we'll see what that does.

 

 

 

 

[One and a half]

@wklie, another question, sorry, is the AES3 or S/PDIF BNC/coax isolated using Lundahl transformers (or something like it?) for the U1. thanks,

[wklie]

Those digital outputs from U1 / U1 MINI have transformer isolation, but they are not using Lundahl.

 

Only Lumin X1 / S1 / A1 / T1 use Lundahl in the analog output stage.

[One and a half]

7 minutes ago, wklie said:

Those digital outputs from U1 / U1 MINI have transformer isolation, but they are not using Lundahl.

 

Only Lumin X1 / S1 / A1 / T1 use Lundahl in the analog output stage.

OK, that's means I need not be adding an isolation transformer for the AES3 or coax. More wine money

[BlueSkyy]

Recommendations on using the S1's digital output capabilities:

 

My system configuration is about to change and the preamp that I am moving to does not have two balanced inputs as my previous process did.  I, therefore, may have to move the Lumin to a digital input.  The processor can accept both coaxial (RCA0 and HDMI inputs and I am wondering what is considered the recommended way to hook an S1 up digitally?  Is this idea nothing more than heresey or sacrilege in the first place?

 

Thanks in advance!

 

Joe

[wklie]

@BlueSkyy Coaxial is preferred to HDMI audio.  The only exception is if your processor accepts DSD only from HDMI but not from coaxial, and you have to play DSD.  Edit: You may even connect both and switch input when necessary.

[BlueSkyy]

35 minutes ago, wklie said:

@BlueSkyy Coaxial is preferred to HDMI audio.  The only exception is if your processor accepts DSD only from HDMI but not from coaxial, and you have to play DSD.  Edit: You may even connect both and switch input when necessary.

Thanks wklie.  I tried the HDMI and got some rather disconcerting "handshaking issues" between the S1 and the processor in that the audio would come and go on a repetitive and cyclical basis.  I tried looking for HDCP or EDID settings in the processor but could find none that would stabilize the audio.  The processor would work in either 2.2 or 1.x mode but no joy.  Does the Lumin put out anything video related or is there only audio present?

 

Thanks!

[pl_svn]

@wklie Peter... gapless Qobuz Studio streaming acting again ?

album is "Terpsichore" by Jordi Savall and... looks gapless doesn't work for tracks shorter than 30 seconds (many in this album). with longer ones it works fine ?

[Easterman]

I Can confirm this behavior for "Terpsichore" by Jordi Savall , this album on Tidal on my A1 with firmware 11.3

 

However- Qobuz version of this album, 88/24- plays just fine apart from track 3 (12 seconds) which it actually skips, but no problem with track 9 (18 seconds) plays just dandy till again we hit a track with a duration less than 15 seconds:

tracks 15,19

 

going back to Tidal and checking above tracks, The gap is After track 3, not before

whereas for example track 19 it’s before and after the track. Bit weird (pun intended)

 

i guess there is some code somewhere with exactly 15 seconds threshold?

 

And I can also report here in Denmark, Qobuz and Tidal have become invaluable for me, they complement each other, not a case of choosing one. Due to those redicolous licensing restrictions, sometime an album displays with grey title - Not available anymore : Now just click and hold on the cover, and chose the album from the competing service! Very neat trick

 

I absolutely love my A1

 

best regards

[Easterman]

From the screenshot of the LUMIN app, you can see its playing on Qobuz, and the Tidal icon is on the far right, and clicking on any of them conducts a search based on that criteria Artist or Album Name-on the other service. (guess if you have Spotify too, you can do the same)

 

best regards

 

[thingswelike]

Spotify isn't within the app, so it's just TIDAL and Qobuz.
Another trick (undocumented I think). By tapping the text itself, you can go to the item on the same streaming service too.

i.e. last night I was listening to a single TIDAL track I had in a playlist and wondered what the rest of the album was like. I tapped the album title text and it took me to the whole album on TIDAL, so that I could add all the tracks to the playlist and listen.

[Easterman]

Yes, also a Nice trick which I use All the time!

 

@thingswelike, i think you are wrong regarding Spotify- it is availablein the settings in the LUMIN app, have not tried it, mp3 is not my cuppa ? 

 

Edit : sorry, I was wrong - Spotify is not implemented in the same way as Tidal and Qobuz, just checked it out ?

 

[Easterman]

Another nice way to quickly navigate the LUMIN app :

instead of using the Fat Backarrow, click and hold on the menu (“Secret Messages 17 items” in the screenshot) and you will see the tree, from root to where you are, it allows you to navigate anywhere you have been and go back and forth in the tree

 

lets say you search for Jeff Lynne, play anything - then search for Madonna - play something with her, when you now click the tree - those searches are available to go back to, I use that a lot, then also go between the streaming services, lots of ways to use this great app!

 

Btw, that tree relates to each of the streaming searches separately, very very neat ?

[Easterman]

And just one more trick for the LUMIN App, you can use “Siri” to input a search

 

go to the search field, then press the microphone between the globe and space bar- Dire Straits for example, and press search, much quicker than typing

[wklie]

8 hours ago, BlueSkyy said:

Does the Lumin put out anything video related or is there only audio present?

 

There is no way to transmit audio only without video in HDMI.

https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/162590/can-i-use-hdmi-for-audio-only-without-video

 

Please use coaxial input.

[wklie]

7 hours ago, Easterman said:

i guess there is some code somewhere with exactly 15 seconds threshold?

 

Yes.  I'll consider reducing it, but you'll still have to have very fast Tidal download speeds for this to work (many people don't, and it's not much related to your own internet bandwidth).

[BlueSkyy]

21 minutes ago, wklie said:

 

There is no way to transmit audio only without video in HDMI.

https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/162590/can-i-use-hdmi-for-audio-only-without-video

 

Please use coaxial input.

Okay I will get a cable and use the coaxial output.  Is this to imply that the HDMI cannot be made to work with a typical AV processor such as the McIntosh MX-150 or the Marantz AV8805?

[wklie]

It should work - we tested it, a reviewer tested it, and I know a few users also use it, but HDMI handshake problems are very hard to solve.  Which model of AV receiver are you using?

[BlueSkyy]

I've tested with both the McIntosh MX-160 and the newer Marantz AV8805 mentioned above.  Both exhibit the same dropping in and out of the audio.  The Mac is HDCP 1.x and the Marantz can do 1.x and 2.2.

 

I don't intend to lose any sleep over it if I can't get it working so I wouldn't worry about it.