LUMIN - Audiophile Network Music Player

[AZ Craig]

The two L1 servers that I have did have mechanical drives (it’s been a few years ago so maybe the are using SSD). Replacing the was relatively easy but you need a really long and narrow screwdriver to reach the front screws. 
 

I just cloned the original drive to the SSD and was good to go. It might void the warranty. So be careful. 
 

the L1 is super simple. Plug in the usb to your computer, drag/drop the music to it like a standard usb drive, unplug usb and plug in Ethernet cable. All done, that’s it. The server show up on the LUMIN as well as other devices I have in my home. 

[AZ Craig]

Chungjh 

 

im not sure that I’d hear the difference as I am nearly 70 and played music way too loud all my life. ;-)

[wklie]

9 hours ago, AZ Craig said:

The two L1 servers that I have did have mechanical drives (it’s been a few years ago so maybe the are using SSD). Replacing the was relatively easy but you need a really long and narrow screwdriver to reach the front screws. 
 

I just cloned the original drive to the SSD and was good to go. It might void the warranty. So be careful. 
 

the L1 is super simple. Plug in the usb to your computer, drag/drop the music to it like a standard usb drive, unplug usb and plug in Ethernet cable. All done, that’s it. The server show up on the LUMIN as well as other devices I have in my home. 

 

That is correct.  Placing music into the L1 is like using a USB HDD.  When you unplug the USB cable, it turns itself into network music library mode.  It is not like a NAS because L1 does not support SMB service, so you cannot copy music from a computer to L1 via network.  For those who like to copy music files from a computer to the network music server via network, you'll have to use a (preferably fanless) NAS, or run MinimServer directly on the computer.

 

Strictly speaking a drive replacement voids warranty.  In case of Lumin product repairs, the original parts (including drive) must be present.  I should also mention that we never tested the use of SSD inside L1, although a few users reported success.

[bfmcosta]

@wklie any plans on providing access to HRA Streaming service from HIGHRESAUDIO in Lumin products in the near future?

[Ropet]

@wklie I’m testing Tidal Master with Lumin U1 Mini. It sounds excellent but I have some questions for my understanding.

 

1. Just now I play Keith Jarret Standards vol 2 MQA. It shows ”MQA 24/192” on the app but on the dac display (over AES/EBU) it shows ”24/96”. Normally AES/EBU have no issues with this resolution.
2. When I play for examplel Wayne Shorters ”Emanon” it shows ”MQA 24/44,1” on the app but ”24/88,2” on the dac display.

 

My dac (Aesthetix with Burr Brown 1792A) is not doing the decoding. It is made by U1 Mini.

 

It sounds very good but I’m curious to know why U1 Mini does not decode MQA as indicated on the app? 

[barrows]

15 minutes ago, Ropet said:

@wklie I’m testing Tidal Master with Lumin U1 Mini. It sounds excellent but I have some questions for my understanding.

 

1. Just now I play Keith Jarret Standards vol 2 MQA. It shows ”MQA 24/192” on the app but on the dac display (over AES/EBU) it shows ”24/96”. Normally AES/EBU have no issues with this resolution.
2. When I play for examplel Wayne Shorters ”Emanon” it shows ”MQA 24/44,1” on the app but ”24/88,2” on the dac display.

 

My dac (Aesthetix with Burr Brown 1792A) is not doing the decoding. It is made by U1 Mini.

 

It sounds very good but I’m curious to know why U1 Mini does not decode MQA as indicated on the app? 

Steamers are not permitted to do the full MQA unfolding.  A streamer is only permitted, by MQA "rules" to do the first unfold.  The second "unfold" (actually crappy and lossy oversampling using very leaky filters) is only allowed to be done by DAC hardware.  This is all part of MQA's attempt to blackmail hardware makers into paying for the MQA license:  "If you add MQA to your DAC, all your customers will have to purchase new DACs to get the 'advantage' of MQA, so it is worth it to pay us (MQA) the most for the license.

Note that the original file int his case was only 24/96 to begin with, and note the MQA compression is lossy and actually delivers less than a native 24/96 file resolution.

MQA is scam, and scourge on the industry, and on music lovers.  Do not be deceived by the nonsense.

[wklie]

@Ropet There are two stages of MQA decoding.  MQA certified transports with digital output (like the U1 MINI you have) will only do the MQA Core decoding (first unfold).  Case 1 is transmitted in 48kHz.  MQA Core decoding yields 96kHz.  Case is transmitted in 44.1kHz.  MQA Core decoding yields 88.2kHz.  This MQA Core decoding result is the same across U1 MINI, Tidal desktop app, Aurdivana and Roon.  The MQA sample rate you see refers to the original master that went into producing the MQA track, and is a different thing from transmission rate, Core decoded rate, DAC playback rate or render rate.

 

Only with a MQA certified DAC and Lumin analog output products, then the MQA rendering will occur following MQA Core decoding.  MQA Rendering takes into account individual DAC hardware and is optimized for particular hardware.  I worked on MQA integration for different DAC chips from different semiconductor manufacturers, so I do know for a fact that they are different on a numerical basis.  It is because MQA rendering is tailored to individual hardware, the MQA transports cannot do the rendering universally since every DAC is different.

[Kray]

Has anyone experienced a sound quality difference between streaming Qobuz direct on Lumin vs using Lumin as a Roon endpoint?

 

I love the discovery on Roon but is that worth he $120yr? Especially if the sound quality is inferior 

[Nicoben45]

Don’t tell that to Roon people, they will say you are crazy because in the network world zeros are zeros and ones are ones.... 

But despite what they think, that is a reality, software impact on sound quality at the end of the chain is a reality for many peuple who compared Roon, UPNP, Audirvana.... but the reality may be that hardware has impact on that too, the best the Roon Server and network upgrade is, the best Roon will sound (ssd for the system and storage, linear power supplies for server and all network accessories, non shielded ethernet cables choosed by ear, audiophile ethernet switch for the last network meters near audio gears...), everything matters in this side of audio toys and can make UPNP sound better but can make Roon sound better too and minimize differences between software solutions.

Some will tell you to use HQplayer to make Roon Sound the way you want, but tinkering with the signal don’t make it more natural, except if the dac need that to sound better, but it’s an other problem.

[barrows]

5 hours ago, Nicoben45 said:

Don’t tell that to Roon people, they will say you are crazy because in the network world zeros are zeros and ones are ones.... 

But despite what they think, that is a reality, software impact on sound quality at the end of the chain is a reality for many peuple who compared Roon, UPNP, Audirvana.... but the reality may be that hardware has impact on that too, the best the Roon Server and network upgrade is, the best Roon will sound (ssd for the system and storage, linear power supplies for server and all network accessories, non shielded ethernet cables choosed by ear, audiophile ethernet switch for the last network meters near audio gears...), everything matters in this side of audio toys and can make UPNP sound better but can make Roon sound better too and minimize differences between software solutions.

Some will tell you to use HQplayer to make Roon Sound the way you want, but tinkering with the signal don’t make it more natural, except if the dac need that to sound better, but it’s an other problem.

Well, remember what you are comparing as well.  If you are using a Renderer as a Roon endpoint, the Network protocol is Roon RAAT.  If you are using the Renderer via UPNP, that is a very different Network protocol.  And if you are using HQPlayer, you are using their own NAA, which is a third Network protocol.  Each one of these different Network protocols will interact differently with the Renderer, and very likely will produce a different noise profile at the Renderer's output.  Some Renderers may perform better with one protocol over another, but it is not likely possible to say: Roon RAAT is better than UPNP, or NAA is better than RAAT, etc, as the interaction will be different for different Renderers running different operating systems.  The best Renderer, will reduce these differences to levels which should be inaudible.

Soon I will make some measurements to have a look at how hard each of these Network protocols make the Renderer work, which protocol requires more processing on the Renderer side...  I do not know yet, but I will find out.

 

As to the DAC and its relationship with HQPlayer:  I would suggest that ultimately, the most natural sound, will almost always happen when the DAC is allowed to do less work.  That is when one can do all processing and oversampling of the signal in HQPlayer, and the DAC then just converts the signal to analog and drives its output.  This reduces the level of RF inside the DAC.  Now there may be some exceptions to this (and I find the Tambaqui to the only exception which I have ever heard, as it manages to sound natural even though it is doing substantial internal processing), but for most DACs this will be the case.  HQPlayer OS works exceptionally well for DACs which will allow a NOS mode on their part, like my Bricasti M3 for DSD, or Holo and Denfrips DACs, etc.

[Nicoben45]

These are words full of common sense, I gladly share this vision of things.

Proving these impacts by measurement, highlighting a possible prioritization of current and developing network audio protocols would be a major advance in the objectification of certain subjective audiophile feelings, ambitious isn’t it 😊

[barrows]

@Nicoben45, Haha, well, I am not sure what one might "prove" this way, but at least I can measure the power consumption in the Renderer for each protocol, and see if there are significant differences.  This power consumption does reflect the amount of processing going on for each protocol, as I have verified that previously; measuring, for example, the power consumption of a Sonore Renderer and how it increases as sample rate increases.

[Akjohnson]

I have a question re Lumin products. Are they going to support the Tidal connect and the possible Qobuz connect? If they do will this be via a firmware upgrade or will we need to buy a new product?

thanks

[Nicoben45]

Let's say that each way is good to explore in order to hope to find a common point between protocol and potential sound impact ...

Quite a few people are working on protocols ( WNDR for Waversa, Diretta...), sorry that the way to renderer immunity to whatever goes upstream is not well lit,  the future of dematerialized musical quality depends on it. Total immunity to protocols, power consumption, electrical pollution carried by the network and server, hard drives, usb links (so affected by the usb cable, unsuitable connection for an audio stream ... or it’s the receiver that should be immune to usb signal and power wires).
 

Let’s sum up: the manufacturers of dacs are far from the goal, to make their machines, the analogue output of d/a conversion and output stage totally immune to what is happening upstream, the real goal is here for future, it is a fundamental problem to which solutions are sought in each small cause upstream but if all the energy deployed for the upstream was used for the immunity of the downstream, the audiophile would once and for all be reconciled with dematerialized audio (but all manufacturers of small boxes would no longer have any work,  like manufacturers of injection pumps for cars soon 🙄). We are not there for now.

[robi20064]

19 hours ago, barrows said:

Well, remember what you are comparing as well.  If you are using a Renderer as a Roon endpoint, the Network protocol is Roon RAAT.  If you are using the Renderer via UPNP, that is a very different Network protocol.  And if you are using HQPlayer, you are using their own NAA, which is a third Network protocol.  Each one of these different Network protocols will interact differently with the Renderer, and very likely will produce a different noise profile at the Renderer's output.  Some Renderers may perform better with one protocol over another, but it is not likely possible to say: Roon RAAT is better than UPNP, or NAA is better than RAAT, etc, as the interaction will be different for different Renderers running different operating systems.  The best Renderer, will reduce these differences to levels which should be inaudible.

Soon I will make some measurements to have a look at how hard each of these Network protocols make the Renderer work, which protocol requires more processing on the Renderer side...  I do not know yet, but I will find out.

 

As to the DAC and its relationship with HQPlayer:  I would suggest that ultimately, the most natural sound, will almost always happen when the DAC is allowed to do less work.  That is when one can do all processing and oversampling of the signal in HQPlayer, and the DAC then just converts the signal to analog and drives its output.  This reduces the level of RF inside the DAC.  Now there may be some exceptions to this (and I find the Tambaqui to the only exception which I have ever heard, as it manages to sound natural even though it is doing substantial internal processing), but for most DACs this will be the case.  HQPlayer OS works exceptionally well for DACs which will allow a NOS mode on their part, like my Bricasti M3 for DSD, or Holo and Denfrips DACs, etc.

 

This sounds like a great idea. Would you mind creating a new thread for it so we can follow that already? :)

[BlueSkyy]

On 1/24/2021 at 5:23 AM, Nicoben45 said:

(but all manufacturers of small boxes would no longer have any work,  like manufacturers of injection pumps for cars soon 🙄)

LOL.  I see what you tried to do here and my 707 B.H.P. Dodge Charger Hellcat will always need injection pumps and injectors and fossil fuel just like I'll always need vinyl and a nude diamond stylus.  😉

[wklie]

On 1/23/2021 at 11:06 PM, barrows said:

Soon I will make some measurements to have a look at how hard each of these Network protocols make the Renderer work, which protocol requires more processing on the Renderer side...  I do not know yet, but I will find out.

 

I suggest: context switches, CPU utilization, power consumption fluctuation.  There is a network protocol that aims to reduce fluctuation in power consumption.  I've seen a similar effort for USB audio too.  As one may expect, these are immediately dismissed by objectivists in the spirit of bits are bits.

[wklie]

On 1/24/2021 at 6:05 PM, Akjohnson said:

I have a question re Lumin products. Are they going to support the Tidal connect and the possible Qobuz connect? If they do will this be via a firmware upgrade or will we need to buy a new product?

 

We are interested in supporting Tidal Connect for existing products.

[wklie]

For those who have the new Apple Mac M1, please try Lumin app on it.

[pl_svn]

1 hour ago, wklie said:

For those who have the new Apple Mac M1, please try Lumin app on it

... there's a Lumin app version for macOS too? 😮

where do I download it from? 😶

[stefano_mbp]

1 minute ago, pl_svn said:

there's a Lumin app version for macOS too

...for new M1 Mac only ... they can run iOS apps ... as they are ARM processor based

[pl_svn]

 

😢

(doesn't show up searching the App Store on an Intel Mac)

[keeper]

Peter do you have any timescales on Tidal Connect?

[wklie]

1 hour ago, pl_svn said:

(doesn't show up searching the App Store on an Intel Mac)

 

For Apple M1 only.

[Ropet]

On 2021-01-23 at 12:22 AM, barrows said:

MQA is scam, and scourge on the industry, and on music lovers.  Do not be deceived by the nonsense.

I fully support this view. I have hard to understand how the industri went into to this MQA trap. I prefer the position that Quboz has taken to offer uncoded highres-files if they are available from the labels. Unfortunately Quboz is not available in Scandinavia. After asking them they are preparing it and hopefully it will happen this year. If and then I will sign up with them insted and skip Tidal.