LUMIN - Audiophile Network Music Player

[4est]

Well, the cases look tremendously similar, but the parts on the board are no where near the same.

[Audio_ELF]

Well, the cases look tremendously similar, but the parts on the board are no where near the same.

 

I didn't think the cases really looked similar either...

 

As you say the parts aren't similar - doesn't the LUMIN use Burr Brown / TI DAC and the Linn use Wolfson (IIRC). Okay they use the same DAC chip, and have the same output transformers - but the rest of the board doesn't really look similar (IMO)

 

Sounds like someone is making an issue about something that doesn't exist.

[4est]

I didn't think the cases really looked similar either...

 

As you say the parts aren't similar - doesn't the LUMIN use Burr Brown / TI DAC and the Linn use Wolfson (IIRC). Okay they use the same DAC chip, and have the same output transformers - but the rest of the board doesn't really look similar (IMO)

 

Sounds like someone is making an issue about something that doesn't exist.

 

True, not the exteriors as much as the construction style and tapered rear overhang and such. I agree this is an issue about nothing.

[ismewor]

This is really cool in such of short time many has been replace so call top of the line player with great name.

If these example stand true and not self promo, would it be helpful to post some real photo shot and show us such that with the replacement together. so that other don't have to question about your sample.

Since a photo is much better than thousand words now a day in the cyber world.

 

In addition, you mention just try and may be you like it. That would be nice if the company really has the know how and be brave enough to give us a intro rate that would be wonderful.

 

Just my 2cents.

 

 

A friend with a EMMLab SACD player now use the LUMIN because the same DSD file ripped from his SACD sounds much better than the real SACD disc playing on his SACD player!

 

 

Last Sunday I helped a friend setup his LUMIN because the sound is better than his Wadia Series 9 decoding computer!

 

 

I understand (audiophile) sound quality is very much personal. I believe the LUMIN can hold it's own place! Try it and you may like it!

[Miska]

As you say the parts aren't similar - doesn't the LUMIN use Burr Brown / TI DAC and the Linn use Wolfson (IIRC).[/s] Okay they use the same DAC chip' date=' and have the same output transformers - but the rest of the board doesn't really look similar (IMO)[/quote']

 

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if they use the Direct DSD mode offered by Wolfson (assuming it's either WM8741 or WM8742)? Or does it go through the PCM conversion? If there's digital volume control with DSD, then it is likely going through the PCM conversion, since Wolfson offers digital volume for DSD only through PCM conversion.

[psme]

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if they use the Direct DSD mode offered by Wolfson (assuming it's either WM8741 or WM8742)? Or does it go through the PCM conversion? If there's digital volume control with DSD, then it is likely going through the PCM conversion, since Wolfson offers digital volume for DSD only through PCM conversion.

 

If you know the designer, you know. Well, I know! We tried very hard to implement the real DSD native mode (called DSD Direct in Wolfson terms). One of the difficulty is the handling of "mute" operation, because unlike PCM mode which works by fade out the volume and feeding zero into the DAC, DSD is total different. In DSD everything is relative...

[Miska]

If you know the designer, you know. Well, I know! We tried very hard to implement the real DSD native mode (called DSD Direct in Wolfson terms). One of the difficulty is the handling of "mute" operation, because unlike PCM mode which works by fade out the volume and feeding zero into the DAC, DSD is total different. In DSD everything is relative...

 

So did you succeed and it is using DSD Direct?

 

I know, but it's all implementable, I know because I've implemented soft-ramped digital volume control for DSD...

You definitely don't want to feed zeros to DSD DAC because it would generate maximum negative DC, but you can feed "DSD silence".

 

In my PCM+DSD DAC I have output mute relays anyway for a true mute.

[psme]

So did you succeed and it is using DSD Direct?

 

Of course it is native DSD Direct mode!

 

LUMIN also does DSD to PCM conversion on the fly for those need it for whatever reason. In the LUMIN app, there is an option to set DSD in native mode or convert to PCM mode. In DSD native (direct) mode, SPDIF (BNC) has no output, HDMI outputs DSD bitstream. In DSD to PCM covert mode, user can set DSD to 176.4/88.2/44.1 PCM for SPDIF and HDMI PCM output.

[luka]

I didn't think the cases really looked similar either...

 

As you say the parts aren't similar - doesn't the LUMIN use Burr Brown / TI DAC and the Linn use Wolfson (IIRC). Okay they use the same DAC chip, and have the same output transformers - but the rest of the board doesn't really look similar (IMO)

 

Sounds like someone is making an issue about something that doesn't exist.

 

OK, so apart from the DAC chips, the output transformers, the transformer drive circuit, the output relay, the connectors, and the case construction, what have the Romans ever done for us? they are completely different.

[luka]

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if they use the Direct DSD mode offered by Wolfson (assuming it's either WM8741 or WM8742)? Or does it go through the PCM conversion? If there's digital volume control with DSD, then it is likely going through the PCM conversion, since Wolfson offers digital volume for DSD only through PCM conversion.

 

Is the Wolfson Direct DSD mode really direct? The filter graphs in the data sheet make me think some processing is being done (not natural to have such sharp nulls)

[Audio_ELF]

OK, so apart from the DAC chips, the output transformers, the transformer drive circuit, the output relay, the connectors, and the case construction, what have the Romans ever done for us? they are completely different.

Luka - do you have some knowledge that LUMIN have ripped off Linn's design? If so I think you should present it otherwise I think this is a non-issue and is a serious accusation.

 

Eloise

[michael123]

1) Why DoP? Isn't DoP about USB connectivity?

2) The technical spec IMHO is something incomplete without sound specs - SnR, jitter specs, clocks,, etc. It is became kind of a standard now that the manufacturers publishes the Audio Precision graphs as part of their online documentation..

[luka]

Luka - do you have some knowledge that LUMIN have ripped off Linn's design? If so I think you should present it otherwise I think this is a non-issue and is a serious accusation.

 

Eloise

 

I have only the photographs I linked to earlier. I have tried to decipher the Klimax DAC circuit from photographs for my own homebrew DAC project. That's why the Lumin DAC circuit caught my eye. If you look closely, and with a bit of electronics knowledge, you will see many similarities.

[Audio_ELF]

I have only the photographs I linked to earlier. I have tried to decipher the Klimax DAC circuit from photographs for my own homebrew DAC project. That's why the Lumin DAC circuit caught my eye. If you look closely, and with a bit of electronics knowledge, you will see many similarities.

Yes, but similarities don't mean one is a copy of the other.

 

There are only so many ways to layout a circuit board using best practices; and it maybe both use a reference design laid out by a chip manufacturer (for example).

 

I will agree the case design is quite similar - a case (pun unintended) of Linn inspiring the LUMIN perhaps. But accusations of copying are quite serious.

 

Eloise

[luka]

Yes, but similarities don't mean one is a copy of the other.

 

There are only so many ways to layout a circuit board using best practices; and it maybe both use a reference design laid out by a chip manufacturer (for example).

 

I will agree the case design is quite similar - a case (pun unintended) of Linn inspiring the LUMIN perhaps. But accusations of copying are quite serious.

 

Eloise

 

I don't think I have made any such accusations. I am just pointing out similarities as I see them.

 

Also the reference design in the Wolfson DAC data sheet does not use transformers.

[Miska]

Is the Wolfson Direct DSD mode really direct? The filter graphs in the data sheet make me think some processing is being done (not natural to have such sharp nulls)

 

 

See the connections from "AUDIO INTERFACE" block to the "PCM/DSD MUX" block, this is the Direct DSD mode. Similar to the Direct DSD mode available in CS4398 DAC chip I'm using:

 

 

Reason for the filter graph is that the D/A conversion stage itself is one kind of (analog) filter. Main difference between the two chips is that for volume control option the CS4398 has a "DSD Processor" stage that operates with straight DSD at original rate, including DSD128.

[Audio_ELF]

Luka, your two relevant posts are...

Is the Lumin DAC stage from Linn? From the pictures it looks a lot like the Klimax DS.

More than a bit similar I think . Have their lawyers been in touch yet?

Personally I find the implication (if not directly an accusation) to be you are suggesting that LUMIN have copied Linn.

 

May I ask you directly I you have some kind of axe to grind considering you have made 6 posts on this forum, all in this thread and (to my mind) all of them of a negative nature?

 

Eloise

[psme]

Luka, your two relevant posts are...

 

 

Personally I find the implication (if not directly an accusation) to be you are suggesting that LUMIN have copied Linn.

 

May I ask you directly I you have some kind of axe to grind considering you have made 6 posts on this forum, all in this thread and (to my mind) all of them of a negative nature?

 

Eloise

 

Thanks for the support! When luka mentioned similarity to a Klimax DS, I thought he/she was half joking, so I replied accordingly. Yes, both Klimax DS and LUMIN use the same WM8741 DAC and a output transformer. And every thing else are totally different. A WM8741 DAC and a output transformer alone don't make an audiophile streamer!

 

Anyway, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I can only ignore those not worth reading! Now back to enjoying music, in native DSD!

[psme]

1) Why DoP? Isn't DoP about USB connectivity?

 

I thought someone would ask this! Thanks for asking!

 

DoP stands for "DSD over PCM". It's a bitstream format. It just so happen the first usage of this new bitstream format is in USB connection. In theory one can use DoP format over any physical connection.

 

On the LUMIN, DoP means playing/streaming an audio file which is in the DoP bitstream format (kind of like packing a DTS signal in PCM container in the old day). LUMIN already supports DSD playback in .DIF (DIFF) and .DSF file formats, so why DoP format? The reason is for easy tagging and UPnP Server serving. Currently, I think only foobar2000 (with SACD plugin) supports DIFF and DSF tagging. KORG's AudioGate supports DSF tagging, but not DIFF I think. Maybe jRiver also support DIFF/DSF tagging? Ok, even you have all the DIF/DSF files tagged, since LUMIN works as a UPnP Renderer in a UPnP AV protocol, the UPnP Server also needs to support native DIFF/DSF files. foobar2000 UPnP plugin and MinimServer support these native DSD file types, but most generic UPnP Server don't.

 

Here is DoP "file" comes in handy. We modified foobar2000 SACD plugin, added an extra option, "covert to DSD over PCM". You start with a PS3 ripped SACD ISO file, or a regular DIFF or DSF file. Put those ISO/DIF/DSF file in foobar2000, right click and select "convert". It will output DoP file in 176.4/24 PCM format, with native DSD packed in DoP style. This DoP file can be in whatever lossless formats, WAV/AIFF/ALAC/FLAC etc. Then you can do tagging easily using your favorite tagging program, such as MP3Tag. These DoP formatted WAV/AIFF/ALAC/FLAC works on any UPnP Server which supports these common PCM file formats.

 

When LUMIN play/stream a lossless PCM file (WAV/AIFF/ALAC/FLAC), if DoP content is detected, LUMIN will properly extract the native DSD data, and goes into DSD native playback.

 

If you play these DoP file on a player which has no DoP "file" support, it will treat it as regular 176.4/24 PCM file. The resulting audio is a very very low volume white noise.

 

That was long!

[luka]

Luka, your two relevant posts are...

 

 

Personally I find the implication (if not directly an accusation) to be you are suggesting that LUMIN have copied Linn.

 

May I ask you directly I you have some kind of axe to grind considering you have made 6 posts on this forum, all in this thread and (to my mind) all of them of a negative nature?

 

Eloise

 

I have no axe to grind. My first post was a genuine question to which I fully expected the answer to be yes. My second post expressed my disbelief in psme's response and was meant to be semi-humorous, as was my third (seriously, no Monty Python fans?).

 

I build audio gear in my spare time and I have shamelessly copied many designs, so I cannot really claim any moral high ground, but it does give me a perspective which enables me to spot similar plagiaristic attempts. If no one else agrees, then fair enough, I'll leave it at that.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Well, if you really like it, maybe consider a trial. Return it for a full refund. Sorry for the sales pitch!

Hi psme - Please include your industry affiliation in your signature. Also, be very careful when talking about your product and competitors' products. A couple rules have worked well here on CA. 1. You can talk about your product when directly asked a question about it and 2. When in doubt don't comment.

 

Feel free to contact me if you aren't sure if you're breaking the rules.

 

Many manufacturers have learned the hard way that discussing their own products in a sketchy fashion backfires in a big way.

[psme]

Thanks Chris for the reminder. Signature added.

[luka]

Reason for the filter graph is that the D/A conversion stage itself is one kind of (analog) filter. Main difference between the two chips is that for volume control option the CS4398 has a "DSD Processor" stage that operates with straight DSD at original rate, including DSD128.

 

Thanks Miska. I found a Cirrus patent that describes the process - basically using the multi-bit DAC elements as an analog FIR filter. Ingeneous.

[psme]

Hi psme.

 

Just a interesting thing to know. There is an earth connection at the back of both lumin and transformer. Is there any special usage? Or Used to connect to those earth box for tuning? haha...

 

Sorry for missing this question! The earth connector is for those setup without an earth pin in the mains lead. In that case please connect the earth connector to an earthing terminal.

[dariusb]

psme,

 

Do you have a list of modifications(upsampling, filters and etc.) you can do in the Lumin configuration via app?

 

BR,

Darius