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HQPlayer's Network Audio Adapter


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I have now updated the CuBox-i image at the usual place.

 

Thanks Miska. Should we expect any SQ difference with the new NAA build?

 

And any chance you have made the bot a bit more patient in waiting for a IP from my slow (DSL router/modem) DHCP server?

[As you may recall, connection to my Cisco switch slows down the IP assignment long enough that your Linux gives up; NAA works for me only when wired directly to the DSL modem. Same for both CuBox-i and Mac NAA images from you, whereas all other Linux I have booted from work fine through the switch. Has nobody else reported this sort of thing to you?]

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You are not the only one. My SOtM sMS100 needs to be directly connected as well.

 

That's good to know Forrest.

I forgot which processor the sMS-100 is based on. I know it is an ARM, but what OS build and NAA do you use in it? I imagine the latest image from Jussi for CuBox-i won't work for you. So I guess it is up to me to try the new image out on my CuBox-i4Pro and see if it will work through my Ethernet switch. If it does, then maybe that will inspire Miska to update his AMD64 and other builds.

Regards,

AJC

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Just for the record, I have three (3) switches between my office and the NAA in living room...

 

Yes, but which device is your DHCP server? I think the problem is not the switches, it is that my DSL modem/router is at slow end of the acceptable spec (JS explained this to me in more technical terms), and that the extra time through the switch is long enough for the Linux to time out waiting for a lease. I know my DSL router is slow because on my other machines, when I renew the DHCP lease, there is a slight lag--more so that with other systems I have experienced.

 

I will try to gather more data for you on this.

 

Thanks,

--Alex

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  • 2 months later...

Hi Miska:

Hope you are well. Any news about when HQP will have an update to allow users to specify (in the desktop app) the IP address of where to find the NAA? As you have learned, I am not the only one for whom pairing has been an issue. Would be great if the live DNS requirement was not the only means of discovering the NAA. The NAA reports its IP address when it boots, so just let us tell that to HQP. I know actual implementation of that is not as simple as I make it sound, but you are a VERY clever fellow--and I know you would appreciate wider adoption of NAA set ups.

 

Thanks and regards,

--Alex C.

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Ethernet cable is a normal one, not a cross-cable, correct?

 

You will have to go through an Ethernet switch and/or router. HQP desktop won't find the NAA on the network unless there is a DNServer running. (I asked Miska about this again in post #192 above; Hopefully he is planning to allow manual IP address entry--on player side--to tell it what address to look at for an NAA.)

 

P.S. Modern Macs--and probably PC Ethernet boards--have not required crossover EN cables for many years now. The computer/interface figures out what it is connected to and swaps its signals around accordingly.

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Would I need a keyboard and screen to install Debian etc or will i see the NAA through my MACbook pro to do the install?

 

 

Which is the oldest/cheapest Mac mini that would do ? is a G4 OK or should it be Intel, is 512 Mo of RAM enough?

 

Yes, you will need a screen and keyboard (and some Linux installs do not recognize the Apple Aluminum keyboard).

 

Intel is a must. And I never had any luck with the image Miska gave me (at the beginning of 2014) on my 2010 Core 2 Duo mini. Only when I upgraded to i5/i7 minis (2011/12/14) was I able to get NAA working on a Mac.

 

I wish it was easier. After many hours of fussing, I can understand why Miska is reluctant to distribute the NAA image for Intel/AMD. Computer and software support is no fun for anyone!

 

Maybe you should try the SOtM sMS-100--with a nice LPS--as NAA.

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On the other hand, my iMac is already my router currently, but it is sharing the Ethernet through Wi-Fi, so what I did before was to remove the modem connection, and then connect an Ethernet cable to the Raspi.

 

I tried a bunch to make HQP/NAA work with my desktop Mac as router (via both Network Sharing and OS X's built-in DHCP service "bootp" ; Running Mac OS X's built-in DHCP server - Jacques Fortier). Never got that to work. In fact, due to the slowness of the DHCP in my ADSL modem, I have to direct connect to it, as the Linux/NAA boot image I use is not patient enough to wait for a lease--from the modem/router--through my Cisco switch.

 

But please do let us know if you find a means to make a direct connection work.

 

Thanks,

--Alex C.

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would you say that, since you said the Cubox was unlistenable compared to the mini, that I'm better off staying away from NAA until I can consider putting as much money in a NAA than in my DAC ?

[/color]

 

I have NO idea. The only comparison test I did was between my 2012 i7 16GB Mac mini and the CuBox-i4Pro (both powered by JS-2 LPS; both booted with text-only Linux/NAA image created and optimized by Miska).

 

I think Miska feels that there should not be such a large difference as the one I hear. But maybe the quality of the CuBox-i USB is not so good, or that the large cache of the Mac's i7 is some advantage--I really don't know. And I have never listened to a SOtM sMS-100, but I hear that many people enjoy it as an NAA and s/w support for that is excellent (can also be used with LMS, DLNA, and several other server softwares).

 

And just to be honest about it, I am back to using HQ Player direct to DAC (via headless control of my linear fan controlled, LPS-fed, slimmed Mavericks SD boot Mac mini). The SQ between that and same machine as NAA (with player run from my not-optimized desktop i7 mini--still running Mountain Lion) is about equal, with slight favor to the non-NAA set up. But that may be because I have to run the NAA to my DSL modem--as opposed to Mac-to-Mac Ethernet direct with just HQP set-up. I will try NAA again if/when Miska allows users to directly specify--to HQP desktop player--the IP address of the NAA.

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... don't really want to spend $1400 for a 16gb i7 mac mini on an experiment ...

 

Gee, I bought mine as a refurb with warranty from the Apple Store this past July for $679 (then paid $125 for the 16GB of RAM, and of course went the LPS and fan controller route).

 

But yes, my customized Mac mini is a LOT more expensive than a CuBox-i. And based on direct experience of the SQ of MacBook Pros and Airs (booted with the same Mavericks SD card as I use for my mini; tried both on battery and from the wall), I would not expect it be much better than the CuBox.

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My experience seems different: I've installed the NAA software on a Mac mini 2010 running Debian and compared against a SOTM sms100. The sotm is powered by a linear psu, the mini uses a ssd and I've also removed the fan, leaving it without the bottom cover. No dedicated psu.

To my ears, the sotm sounds effortless, with the mini being more nervous, with better instrument separation and harsh top end. Strings sound very strident.

After an hour listening to some string quartets had to switch back to the sotm.

 

Massimiliano: Very glad to hear about your positive results with the SOtM sMS-100. Not a big surprise as I know they put fine effort into that device. And it is a nice, easy route for many.

 

Just to be clear though, your comparison was very different than mine--even on the Mac side. Both hardware and software. My NAA Mac is an i7 (versus your Core 2 Duo), has linear fan controller and excellent external LPS, and was booted from USB stick with a highly optimized/minimal text-only Linux/NAA image made by Miska. (For reference sake and so others can see what I actually used and wrote about the SQ back in September when I did my test, see this post: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f11-software/hqplayer-desktop-3-4-0-windows-linux-and-mac-os-x-released-21629/#post350822)

 

HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE!

 

--Alex C.

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He had been told he needed DNS for this, which was wrong.

 

Well, per Miska--ya' know, the guy who wrote the program ;) :

You need a DNS server available on the network... Internet connection as such is not necessary.

 

I have for a while been asking him to allow users to enter (in the preferences window of HQP desktop app) a specific IP address to look for the NAA at. I think he said that due to multicast issues, he went with DNS lookup only.

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Originally Posted by Miska

Hi,

 

HQPlayer makes some reverse-DNS requests for example for the NAA's IP. This is not necessary for the functionality and I have removed it from the upcoming HQPlayer version. At least it caused unnecessary delays on the discovery.

 

So while DNS is not by itself necessary for the functionality, it is used by versions prior to HQPlayer 3.6.0 (to make log output look more tidy on networks where reverse DNS works).

 

Another important detail is to make sure multicast goes out from all interfaces when there's more than one.

 

 

Johann:

 

The above is NEW information--since it is the first I have seen of an announcement of HQP 3.6.0 (unreleased as of today). I have done multiple searches here and elsewhere to find the original post and context for the post from Miska that you quoted. But I can not find it. Can you please point us to the source?

 

Indeed this is something have been asking him for for a while. My ADSL router is slow at handing DHCP lease addresses to my Cisco switch, so I have to connect any NAA computer to the ADSL modem/router in order for my desktop player (OS X version) to find/recognize it. I tried a bunch of things to make my desktop Mac into a DHCP/DNS router (am able to do so), but the OS X version never finds my NAA connected either to Cisco switch or direct to Mac EN port (the latter being my greatest desire since I already find better SQ with my Mac-to-Mac setup (with shared network drive on desktop Mac). That is partially why I have not been using HQP with NAA (just as player on modded, headless mini).

 

So if Miska's comment means that HQP 3.6.x is going to allow direct input of IP address (easy to see at boot time of NAA--even the text-only optimized Linux/NAA images for ARM and Intel from Miska--the lease IP shows in the last lines of the boot before the prompt), then that would be VERY good news for me and others who have been frustrated to date with NAA discovery.

 

Thanks,

--Alex C.

 

P.S. I wish both you and YashN would knock off the petty stuff. Really.

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No, adding that would be big change on how NAA works, because it is now found based on it's high-level name instead address (address can change).

 

But I think I can add a "hidden" configuration option to the config XML that can be added manually to force HQPlayer to hook to a particular network interface since there seem to be some multicast routing issues with multiple network adapters.

 

That sounds good Jussi. Especially if it ultimately allows me to do an HQP/NAA setup between 2 Macs with just a straight Ethernet cable between them.

I guess you can now ignore the P.S. in the PM I sent you earlier this evening.

 

Best,

--Alex C.

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There is nothing at all in the current implementation that prevents you from doing that already.

 

PS Your web site seems to be down

 

EDIT: Just tested, it works fine (without DNS and DCHP)

 

Except that it has never worked for me. With OS X version of HQP on desktop, and either CuBox-i4Pro or i7 Mac mini as NAA (both using Linux/NAA images provided by Miska), the only way the player ever finds the NAA is if I run the NAA device's EN cable directly to my DSL router (though the desktop Mac can stay plugged into my Cisco EN switch). If both machines are plugged into my switch, the NAA boot (again the Linux provided by Miska) is too impatient to wait for a DHCP lease (to come from my DSL modem and through to the switch).

 

And as far as direct connection between HQP machine and NAA, I have tried both OS X's Internet Sharing (which essentially is just a GUI for "bootp"), and also bootp directly. Both work for me with other applications (i.e. the far device gets a lease from the desktop Mac), but HQ Player never finds the running NAA.

 

Miska has been aware of this for a while. I would love to find a simple solution to the issue, and I know that I am not alone in this. I will try again when the new version arrives.

 

I think your set up is different than mine in many ways.

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The problem is not on HQP or NAA, it's either something you configured in the NAA or HQP device or something you missed to configure. So I don't think it's fair to ask for fixes in the application to solve problems in your setup.

 

So one problem problem is that your NAA device does not acquire an address from DHCP, right?

 

Just add a faster dhcp server somewhere in your network, add a sleep command in the naa startup script, login to the NAA device and re-start it or use fix ip addresses on your devices.

 

Is your target to:

 

2. Have a separate network (just a TP cable) between your HQP and NAA, where HQP is hooked up to your normal network.

 

 

Since #2 is my goal, the logical choice is to have the desktop Mac (the one running HQP) act as a DHCP server for the NAA. But while I CAN do that (the NAA gets an IP from the desktop Mac), HQP still does not "see" the NAA. And the Linux/NAA boot images I use are those provided to me preconfigured by Miska (for ARM and Intel). They just boot minimally to a prompt.

 

Alex C.

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How about trying something very simple like this: WRT54GL which could be run off a 12v/0.5A linear power supply. Uses Broadcom SOC and runs Linux. It will give you 4 Ethernet ports for your home router.

 

I think I do have a Linksys WRT54GL in a drawer somewhere, but I don't see why I would want to add that to my network--especially since I prefer not to have wi-fi in my studio. And its 4 ports would not be nearly enough for my LAN--that's what my 10-port Cisco Gigabit managed with is for. Besides, as I have said, I can get HQP to find NAA devices (both ARM and Intel) as long as they are plugged directly into my DSL modem/router. I don't think there is anything non-standard or unreasonable about expecting to be able to plug them into my Ethernet switch and have them be seen by my desktop Mac (also plugged into EN switch).

 

I admit that my other desire--to be able to have HQP find NAA device that is directly attached via EN cable--is not typical and Miska has already explained what it is hard for him to accommodate that easily. But based on prior comparisons (with direct connection versus through switch; with HQP running on optimized headless i7 mini--getting its music files from shared drive at desktop machine over that EN), there is a distinct sonic advantage to the direct connection. Enough so that NAA playback does not sound as good as just OS X HQP on my tweaked mini driving DAC--even though it is probably hampered by CoreAudio.

I bet the advantage would reverse if I can get the direct connection working--if for no other reason (though I am sure there are others) than the fact that the text-only, very minimal Linux/NAA that Miska gave me is not having to use CoreAudio.

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Miska:

 

Saw that you just made available "networkaudiod" NAA for both Windows and OS X. I will try the OS X one right away. But should I keep my expectations low since the NAA will still have to run through CoreAudio? Are you doing anything special with these NAA releases to help them equal the SQ of your Linux NAA?

 

Thanks,

--Alex C.

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I understand that you hear a better sound when you direct connect your NAA vs through your switch. I am suggesting that you might instead try a low-power router which you could easily power via a LPS, one that is actually a low powered 'cpu' running Linux rather than an actual switch -- might make a difference for you with the added benefit of doing a better job at DHCP/NAT/UPNP and other functions that your ADSL modem may not be the best for (but who knows :)

 

Gee, if that works you could actually attach two different NAA on your network :)

 

Thank you for the kind and reasonable suggestion jabbr. I may in fact give it a try :).

 

--Alex C.

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The old Mac Mini would still be a good NAA, renderer or DHCP server (LOL) with 32 bit UNIX or Linux, don't you think?

 

I had quite a bit of trouble getting current Linux distros to support the Ethernet interface chipsets in the older (2009 and 2010) Mac minis. Even tried installing the appropriate drivers from Broadcom's site.

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