HQPlayer's Network Audio Adapter

[bogi]

It makes me wonder if I can get more gains by using fanless pc with SSD, software optimization, etc....looks like I will be getting another toy soon!

 

Win10 can be booted and running from USB stick. I would try that and disconnect your HDD. Officially Microsoft supports to create 'Windows To Go' installation on USB stick only for Win10 Enterprise edition, but using Win10 installation media and free tool you can create USB bootable Win10 installation on USB stick for any Win10 edition (and not only Win10).

 

Best Windows To Go Creator to create bootable Windows 10/8.1/8/7 USB drive!

WiNToBootic - the ultimate Windows USB Boot Disk Maker

[bogi]

Speaking of NAA and power - As I've mentioned in a couple of other threads, I've got a SEEED BeagleBone Green Wireless Board I intend to use as an NAA. I was thinking about powering it with a 5v iFi iPower, but they're on backorder here in the US. So I wondered whether anyone had any suggestions for an inexpensive but good quality linear 5v ~1.5A power supply (the BBGW was $40 and the iFi sells for $50 when it's in stock, so I don't intend to spend a lot on a linear alternative).

 

Though this is a great area for DIY, I'd prefer not having to spend the time putting something together.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

If 1A would be enough, you can consider STONTRONICS - S2226ST - AC-DC LINEAR PSU, 5V 1A UNIVERSAL | CPC UK

It is out of production, but I found it still for example on amazon.co.uk.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=STONTRONICS++S2226ST

I am using it to inject power to USB cable, which connects PC with my DAC.

[bogi]

Thank you Bogi. Which of the 2 links would you suggest using?

 

I found as very easy to use the second one WiNToBootic - the ultimate Windows USB Boot Disk Maker

Do not forget to check [x] Make WindowsToGo, otherwise it would create bootable Windows installation USB stick instead of installing Windows on USB stick.

[bogi]

Why would you want to run your audio OS off a slow USB drive? The performance difference in running off SSD vs HD is observable, this sounds like a step backwards.

 

SSD is naturally better solution. It's better to use USB only for DAC connection. But if he has an unused suitable fast USB key, he can compare it for free with his current HDD solution.

[bogi]

I searched for some cheap Win10 capable mini PCs which could be used as Windows NAA. Windows from the reason of better support for ASIO drivers than Linux. But it does not mean one could not use Linux on these mini PCs, for example to run wftplay for DSD (DSF) files without any upsampling.

 

I would like to know your opinion about suitability of these MiniPCs for NAA role.

 

What I found:

 

1) VOYO V2 TV Box Windows 10 4K-81.56 Online Shopping| GearBest.com

Windows 10 OS 2GB DDR3 RAM + 32GB eMMC ROM Ultra slim size ( only 13.1 x 8.3 x 1.6cm ) €73.87

 

 

2) Vensmile W10 Mini PC TV Box Intel Atom Quad - core Bay Trail CR Z3735F Windows 10 2GB RAM 64GB ROM 2600mAh for Gaming / Internet Surfing / Conference-130.10 Online Shopping| GearBest.com

Win10 2GB 64GB with 2600mAh battery, also ultra slim.

With couponcode GBVS64: $109.89

https://androidtvbox.eu/vensmile-ipc002-w10-mini-pc-with-64gb-or-32gb-and-battery-promo/

 

3) Quad-Core Windows 10 OS Smart Mini PC 2GB/32GB HD 1080P HDMI WiFi TV Box | eBay

Win10 2GB 32GB $91.73This seems to be 32GB version of 2)

4) TV BOX Mini PC Intel Atom x5-Z8350 Quad Core Windows10 64bit 2.4G+5.8G Z83II US | eBay

Win10 2GB 32GB $89.09 not so slim, without battery

 

5) Mini Wintel W8 Windows 10 4K HD PC TV Box Z8300 Intel Quad Cores 2GB/32GB | eBay

Android 4.4,Windows 10 2GB 32GB $77.99

 

It seems to me that 1) is the most interesting if 32GB is enough to conveniently run Win OS. Otherwise 2). Do you have other tips for ready made Win10 mini PCs ?

[bogi]

Hi Miska, thanks. Good to know that 32 GB should be enough.

 

I would like to try something cheaper for my first contact with NAA and the world of these small audio computers. I want it for playing - trying also other possible uses, comparing. Then I will see, if I want to invest more. The option 1) with battery seems to be attractive and very cheap Win10 option to start playing with.

[bogi]

Thanks, but I wanted something to experiment, which allows to install Windows.

[bogi]

I ended up buying a cheap i3 based mini pc from Taobao for around $125. I already had an SSD and memory. I've loaded Server R2 essentials on this pc and its has worked great as an NAA. Another option is the Up Board.

 

Thanks, I am still considering possible choices. i3 may be too 'heavy' for the purpose. Lower power consuming Atom processors may spread less noise to audio system and substituting their power supply may be easier and cheaper.

 

On the other side, I want to experiment also with other available streaming options and uses. Maybe the small computer could be used also for video streaming. It could be also multiboot system, I can try also some Linux solutions. It's for experimenting, playing, comparing.

 

Simply I would like to combine just enough processing power but not too much power consumption and thus noise.

 

I found for example these two with some reviews - according to reviews they are OK also for video, and they are still of low consumption - both use 5V 2A power supplies:

 

1) for $100

Cenovo MINI PC 2 Windows10 Intel Cherry Trail Z8300 Smart Mini PC

 

Cenovo Mini PC 2 Windows PC Review: So Close | Home Theatre Life

I found one Russian discussion (I'm able to read it), they don't report delivery of broken devices or malfunctioning devices, production quality seems to be OK.

 

2) for $154

Beelink BT7 Mini PC Intel Atom X7-Z8700 Quad-core Windows 64bit-206.93 Online Shopping| GearBest.com

Beelink BT7 Windows PC Review: A Step Above The Rest | Home Theatre Life

 

both 4GB RAM and 64 GB ROM + SD slot, LAN, WiFi, bluetooth, more USB slots, HDMI

the 2) has metal case, faster CPU and faster wireless, but CPU cooling contains small ventilation fan

[bogi]

ferenc, thanks for the tip! I like the metal case and 4GB RAM is also advantage. I will consider it for sure.

 

Meanwhile I found this one with very good specs for the price and positive reviews:

Chuwi HiBox Mini PC - Chuwi HiBox Z8350 4G 64G

Passive cooling but no metal body, 1Gbit Ethernet (Xstreamer is 100Mbit). The best price I found is $118, includes shipping:

CHUWI HiBox Mini PC Android 5.1 + Window 10 Dual OS 64bit-148.57 Online Shopping| GearBest.com

 

Review: https://androidtvbox.eu/chuwi-hibox-review-mini-pc-with-dual-os-powered-by-cherry-trail-processor/

Forum: CHUWI HiBox Mini PC Android 5.1 + Window 10 Dual OS 64bit - FreakTab.com

[bogi]

I easily succeeded to setup HQPlayer NAA on Atom X5-Z8350 2GB / 32 GB Win10 Home mini PC, which I bought for 77 EUR: Z83II Mini PC Windows 10 64bit-90.77 Online Shopping| GearBest.com

 

Of course the first thing was to install ASIO driver for my Gustard DAC-X10. Then I could start to setup network connection between my notebook and the NAA mini PC.

 

I am using 4G USB modem on my notebook for internet connection and no home LAN over cables, so the LAN port of my notebook was unused. I could use it for direct gigabyte connection to NAA without any router. I simply connected my notebook and NAA with LAN cable, set fixed IP addresses 192.168.1.1 for my NAA computer and 192.168.1.2 for my notebook LAN interface (netmask 255.255.255.0 on both sides), that's all. Then after disabling firewall I could ping between them. I downloaded, unpacked and started the newest networkaudiod for Windows, currently networkaudiod-342.zip. The actual startup script I used to start the NAA daemon is networkaudiod_name.bat.

 

Last step was to setup HQPlayer. In Settings dialog I set NetworkAudioAdapter as my Backend. I tried also another backend choice NetworkAudioAdapter IPv6, they work both. Then in Tools | Network naming I found my NAA IP address, so it was visible. That was all to do to start playback via NAA.

 

At first I simply connected my DAC and NAA with Supra USB cable. I played some known tracks and I found the sound as quite nice. Then I started with my usual USB tweaks. Adding +5V LPS power injection to my Gustard DAC USB port helped a bit. For the subsequent exteriments, that +5V LPS was permanently conencted to my Gustard DAC USB port.

 

Then I started to experiment with ground connection. I added a short USB adapter cable to my Supra USB cable, which passes only DATA+ and DATA- lines. No ground, no VBUS +5V. This brought real improvement to the sound! I compared it few times and found that no ground in USB cable brings really audible benefit in my setup. Clearer sound of instruments, better separation of instruments, clearer background, less boomy bass.

 

My DAC requires ground between DAC and computer USB port. As my USB cable ground line was interrupted, I started to search the actual ground connection. When I pulled off the HDMI to DVI cable, connecting my NAA with LCD monitor, my DAC became no more visible to NAA computer. So my ground connection between NAA and DAC was leading this way:

[NAA] - HDMI to DVI cable - [LCD monitor] - monitor power cable - [monitor wall socket] [DAC wall socket] - DAC power cable - [DAC]

Then I tested yet one alternate route for ground. I connected my DAC and NAA with simple crocodile cable - I connected outer metal bodies of USB plugs on both sides. That was sufficient to make my DAC visible to my NAA without need to have my external monitor connected. It is interesting how much improvement brought leading of ground connection outside of USB cable. IMO it shows how much negative influence on DATA wires can have noise spreading through ground wire in USB cable.

 

I was already using this tweak with DATA only USB cable previously without NAA. The tweak works with my NAA in the same way as with my notebook.

 

As the last step I compared the sound between NAA setup and direct DAC connection to my notebook. In both cases with that DATA only USB cable tweak and separate ground lead. I clearly preferred the NAA solution. It brought me more clarity, better separation, it was overall improvement. I'm satisfied how the 77EUR investment helped. I never heard so clear sound from my headphone setup. I will use my NAA for sure. In my case less noisy NAA helped in comparison with my notebook.

 

I will reorganize things on my desk and connect my NAA to my DAC with the shortest possible only few centimeter long home made USB cable. I will lead data lines together as twisted pair without shield and I will lead thicker ground line separately to avoid interference between ground and DATA. It will be interesting to compare such home made short cable with my Supra USB cable.

 

I really like the current sound improvement. But I'm still curious how much the following things could help:

- 12V iPower instead of 12V/2A switching power supply, which was delivered with my mini PC

- iSilencer or iPurifier II, or both

Possibly I will order these iThings from hifina.cz, they provide free shipping to Slovakia and 14 day return policy.

[bogi]

tboooe, when such a thing happens to me I know it is my analog RCA cable.

I would check electrical contacts on signal cables. Not USB, there is no no left/right.

[bogi]

For people who definitely want to use HQPlayer on a multi-homed computer and have trouble getting HQPlayer discover the NAA (due to multicast routing issues), Linux route(8) man page has following documentation regarding multicast routing, you can use to enforce IPv4 multicast routing on certain interface (by default I believe it goes to the one with default route). The same can be varied for IPv6 too.

 

      route add -net 224.0.0.0 netmask 240.0.0.0 dev eth0
             This is an obscure one documented so people know how to  do  it.
             This  sets  all  of  the class D (multicast) IP routes to go via
             "eth0". This is the correct normal  configuration  line  with  a
             multicasting kernel.

 

People in the other thread http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f10-music-servers/novel-way-massively-improve-sq-sms-200-and-microrendu-31110/ are using bridging connections (NICs) otherwise they were not able to use Linux based NAA.

 

What's better in your opinion? To enable multicast routing via route command or to set up the bridge?

[bogi]

@Miska, I already had that on Win10, this is my routing table:

 

IPv4 Route Table
===========================================================================
Active Routes:
Network Destination        Netmask          Gateway       Interface  Metric
         0.0.0.0          0.0.0.0      192.168.8.1    192.168.8.100     35
       127.0.0.0        255.0.0.0         On-link         127.0.0.1    331
       127.0.0.1  255.255.255.255         On-link         127.0.0.1    331
 127.255.255.255  255.255.255.255         On-link         127.0.0.1    331
     192.168.1.0    255.255.255.0         On-link       192.168.1.2    281
     192.168.1.2  255.255.255.255         On-link       192.168.1.2    281
   192.168.1.255  255.255.255.255         On-link       192.168.1.2    281
     192.168.8.0    255.255.255.0         On-link     192.168.8.100    291
   192.168.8.100  255.255.255.255         On-link     192.168.8.100    291
   192.168.8.255  255.255.255.255         On-link     192.168.8.100    291
       224.0.0.0        240.0.0.0         On-link         127.0.0.1    331
       224.0.0.0        240.0.0.0         On-link       192.168.1.2    281
       224.0.0.0        240.0.0.0         On-link     192.168.8.100    291
 255.255.255.255  255.255.255.255         On-link         127.0.0.1    331
 255.255.255.255  255.255.255.255         On-link       192.168.1.2    281
 255.255.255.255  255.255.255.255         On-link     192.168.8.100    291

 

192.168.1.2 is fixed address of HQPlayer computer interface to NAA (which has fixed address 192.168.1.1 in my case)

192.168.8.100 is address of my 4G USB dongle interface.

 

If I understood you well I have nothing to do because it is already configured ... Or do I have to do something also on the NAA side?

[bogi]

But I had that routing configuration already yesterday ... and HQPlayer Desktop still cannot see the NAA computer.

 

I succeeded to get sound from my NAA computer this way:

I configured my NAA IPv4 for DHCP. On my HQPlayer notebook I selected my USB dongle (internet) interface | Properties | Sharing and here I selected my Ethernet interface. This way I shared internet connection for my NAA. According to Wikipedia "It makes use of DHCP and network address translation (NAT)".

 

In this mode my NAA was found by HQPlayer Desktop - both through IPv4 and IPv6. So I could play a test track through NAA.

 

Then, while playing music through Networkaudiod IPv6, I removed the internet connection sharing. With this IPv4 NAT was removed on HQPlayer computer Ethernet interface. Music still played through IPv6 NAA.

 

Now I stopped playback and restarted HQPlayer Desktop. I started play. Music still played. So the IPv6 of NAA was remembered in HQPlayer.That functioned till I restarted the NAA computer.

[bogi]

Now about sound comparison Linux vs. Win10. I preferred the sound of Win10 NAA. With more clarity and a bit more dynamic impact it is for me more involving. The Win10 NAA brings me more feeling of 'I am with musicians in the same room'.

 

I like on Win10 NAA also the possibility to configure it through XMOS ASIO Control Panel, where I can set the Streaming Mode in 6 levels from Low Latency on top to Extra Safe on bottom. The upper settings (Low Latency, Standard) bring more detailed sound, but may be more prone to buffer underruns and with some recordings they may sound fatiguing. The the direction to bottom settings sound is more and more relaxed, rounded, but some detail is lost.

 

If all goes without any issue, Linux NAA can be set up very quickly. Especially when prepared NAA image is available - in such a case there is no need for OS + application installation. Windows OS cannot be distributed in such a form, so OS installation is always required. I stripped down Windows OS to run only necessary processes and services, but that is nonstandard unofficial thing and requires some Windows OS related knowledge. This forum contains nice thread dedicated to this topic: Windows 10 optimization script - A community effort?

 

The Linux version advances also in lower hardware requirements. 2GB flash memory is enough for stripped down Debian. Windows 10 OS requires about 10 GB + some free space is recommended.

[bogi]

Those just change the driver parameters, IOW how much RAM buffer the driver has, but it doesn't change how data goes over USB. With Linux based NAA you can adjust the corresponding buffer size from HQPlayer (the "Buffer time" setting). Same also with WASAPI backend, plus some ASIO drivers (varies case by case). But it really shouldn't affect sound, apart from drop-out sensitivity perspective.

 

Windows XMOS ASIO Control Panel enables separately to set 2 things:

- Streaming Mode in 6 levels

- Buffer size

 

The Streaming Mode setting has clear affect on sound as I described. Linux can maybe adjust the buffer size, but probably not the streaming mode.

 

I didn't wrote that other bits are coming to DAC! I wrote that the setting affects sound quality. What should affect sq and what not and why some differences can be heard is another story. In ideal case all bitperfect digital outputs should sound the same. We know that generally noise/jitter affects sound. We know that bitferect outputs through different players or digital converters may sound differently. I will not tell you why, I am only telling that the Streaming Mode in Windows XMOS ASIO Control Panel clearly affects sound quality and that I don't have that setting available on Linux.

[bogi]

You don't have that setting anywhere else except Thesycon driver implementation, because it's their own concept and only relates to how the driver does it's on RAM buffering.

Then that RAM buffering affects sound. I like that setting because it affects sound in 6 steps from "smallest grain, very detailed" to "bigger grain, very relaxed, some low level detail lost".

 

Another annoying PITA with the Thesycon driver is that it doesn't expose 48k-base native DSD rates.

 

Yes I know, we discussed that already. My DAC is only DoP capable and therefore I didn't know about that Thesycon limitation before. 48k DSD rates function well with DoP. With HQP 3.15.1 I am often using the xtr filters going to 6.1MHz. For DSD upsampling I can use the non 2s versions and for PCM upsampling I am using the 2s versions.

[bogi]

Only difference I've seen it make it limits the range of available buffer sizes. I think that's all it does.

 

I don't think so ... Then Streaming Mode wouldn't cause such change in sound. Buffer sizes affect sound very very little, it is much harder to observe. Therefore I mean that the word mode has some meaning and doesn't mean size.

[bogi]

Some fixing needed on the DAC side USB interface then... Would be interesting to check the DAC output with audio analyzer. Anyway my recommendation is to use buffer size that keeps the buffer rate below 20 Hz.

 

I tend to use the smallest buffer sizes possible. With some harsh recordings the shortest buffer sizes may sound a aggressive, because they may reveal that harshness more in detail, although apodizing filters to higher rate DSD may do good job on that.

 

When I set the Streaming Mode to Low Latency or Standard, then I have all or almost all buffer sizes available. Searching for sound differences between buffer sizes isn't easy task. Coming from sometimes noisy environment at work and attempting to find them means no chance for me. But on very late evenings, when I am already hours in quiet environment, I came to result that shorter buffer sizes bring a very small amount of increased clarity and detail. But ... take it rather as an impression, because I don't think I could hear such a difference anytime.

 

The change between streaming modes is clearly bigger for me. I have no doubt that it really exists. The biggest chance to observe any sonic differences is with Low Latency streaming mode because it brings most detail and thus makes any comparison easier.

 

I know all what I wrote is subjective, it isn't a measurement. But I own my DAC already 3 years and I compared these settings many times. Sometimes I change settings to adapt to recording.

[bogi]

That harshness/sharpness is then probably leakage of the buffer rate, smaller buffer sizes bring the frequency up to audible range.

Sorry I read again what I wrote and I found I wasn't enough clear so no wonder I confused you a bit with my preference of lower buffer sizes. I didn't mean any general harshness of my setup. I didn't observe that in relation to low buffer sizes (which are possible only with Low Latency and Standard streaming modes - that I forget to mention). Good recordings sound me very well this way. I meant the special case of wrong recordings. So the harshness I mentioned is related only to such recordings. Less detailed setup (for example the Safe streaming modes) can masks shortcomings of these recordings so they may be easier listenable. More detailed setup (Low Latency or Standard streaming mode) may cause these recordings to be harder listenable. That's what I wanted to say. Sorry I wasn't enough clear.

 

However, it is interesting that according to you lower buffer sizes mean higher frequency of their operation, which falls into audible range and thus under some circumstances could have audible effect.

[bogi]

Where do I find the networkaudiod_name.bat file?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

 

Here: https://www.signalyst.eu/bins/naa/windows/

[bogi]

Thanks. But what do I do with it when I've edited the name?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

You use this script to assign name to your NAA and to start NAA (networkaudiod.exe in the last line of the script). So you have to stop your running networkaudiod and start this one instead.

 

In HQPlayer you will see that NAA name in the list of available NAA devices with their DACs.

[bogi]

Another tip: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f22-networking-networked-audio-and-streaming/hqplayers-network-audio-adapter-13892/index85.html#post621600

[bogi]

The difference is described in some extent in HQPlayer manual.

[bogi]

I am trying to setup Win10 HQPlayer Desktop (HQPD) with Win10 NAA. I'm using the latest SW versions of both. I am unable to see NAA in HQPD.

 

My network setup: LTE WiFi router Huawei B310 acts as DHCP server for both HQPD computer and NAA. The router has one LAN port, which is connected to D-Link DGS-108 unmanaged switch.
I tried all combinations – both HQPD and NAA as wireless, both wired into the switch and also mixed solution. No luck.

 

ping, access to shared folders, Remote Desktop, VNC etc. works OK between those computers - wired or wirelessly, IPv4 or IPv6. Regarding NAA, I see empty "Network Audio Adapter Naming" message box.

 

To check DAC connection through ASIO, I installed HQPlayer Desktop on the NAA computer and played a song through ASIO interface - it played OK.

 

I temporarily disabled firewall on both computers but it didn't help. Still my HQPlayer Desktop cannot see my NAA.

 

Some time ago I used NAA with direct LAN cable between HQPD and NAA. I tried it again but it didn’t work now. Few months ago it worked yet but now no luck. I tried also older versions of NAA as well as older versions of HQPD. Maybe some Windows Update caused the trouble?? My Win10 is now Version 1709.

 

I know there are people on the forum who use Win10 NAA. Could you please share your experiences? Any hint, what to check, what to try? What did you do in order your Win10 NAA is found by HQPD?