Pure Vinyl

[Blu]

Mikey Fremer used PV with a phono pre in the article, and advised that in a follow up article he will use a microphone pre and use the PV inbuilt digital eq.

 

PV can be used as the player, preferably by playing the whole side of a vinyl LP. You are also able to edit the file into individual tracks.

 

I was curious about the software after reading the Stereophile article and have been in email contact with Rob Robinson, the man behind Pure Vinyl who answered my questions, which I have copied below.

 

" the output file formats aren't proprietary at all: aiff, sound designer 2, apple lossless compressed m4a, all of which are standard formats, directly usable / playable/ taggable in iTunes. "

 

" As far as high sample rate files, and splitting them into tracks, Pure Vinyl 2.3 only permits splitting the high-resolution recording created in the Recorder (up to 192/24) to (sample rate converted) 44.1/16 or 24 bit tracks for iTunes. There isn't anything inherently preventing splitting the high-resolution file into tracks at the native format; it's just the way Pure Vinyl was designed, because it was envisioned that folks would only want individual tracks for portable players, etc. but would use the album-length high-resolution recording to play in its entirety (like an LP). "

 

" audio can be recorded using Apple CoreAudio file format for lossless compression while recording "

 

" the high resolution recordings created by Pure Vinyl (except for the CoreAudio file format) can be opened and played natively in iTunes; just not as individual tracks. "

 

" we have received requests to be able to directly split and tag recordings at native resolution. Accordingly, the above limitation will not be present in the forthcoming Pure Vinyl 3, which will be released this month as a free upgrade to all users "

 

I hope this extra information will help answer questions that fellow CA members have. I have yet to get the time to try the program myself, but intend to as I have vinyl LP's which I would like to put on my music server.

 

Blu

 

[Roseval]

It was employed purely for financial reasons to make the records cheaper and smaller than they would otherwise be.

 

I know how RIAA correction work but due to the way JCBrum phrases it struck me: Vinyl=analogue MP3!

 

[Ashley James]

 

JC

... in my case, you are preaching to the choir. You are also telling people what to like. I do not understand the percentages in either equation. Do you? These sort of post are really becoming tiresome. Thirdly, you didn't answer the question posed as to whether one needed a phono preamp for Pure Vinyl or not. The question was not about the worth of doing this, it was about HOW to do it.

 

This sort of communication seems to be more and more prevalent online lately. Is the cause of it the fact that many of us have lost our jobs or are about to? I don't know, but this sort of communication is not acceptable. Please screech somewhere else if you cannot control your rage.

 

- markr

 

Mark

 

JC has stated some of the FACTs pertaining to problems in vinyl sound reproduction showing It cannot be as good as digital. Nobody is dictating what people should and should not like and I'm sure he respects as I do that people love it, but anyone interested in obtaining the best sound quality sound needs to understand and be able to quantify the relative distortions in different reproduction systems IMO. However every time unpalatable facts are put before those with an affection for subjective analysis, they are either ignored or we risk a fight. Neither is fair: "I don't like that so you mustn't say it!" or I prefer a Shiraz to a Merlot seems to be the stance. I'd argue that this situation has done much harm to the audio industry.

 

JCBrum is an expert recording engineer well known for the quality of his record restorations that he digitises. No one has more respect more vinyl, his only sin is to point out it's limitations correctly. Others I'm sure will find it interesting.

 

I'm depressed by the damage this sort of thing is doing to this Forum and frankly I hope the thread is removed. This is not the place to discuss outdated technologies. I finished with vinyl in the eighties and many others I know did too.

 

With sincere intent.

 

Ash

 

[tfarney]

"WHAT?!? You agree that Tim

 

WHAT?!? You agree that Tim says it much better than me?!!? DANG IT CHRIS!! He's NOT better than me. You.... LOL...... Peace, guys.

 

-markr"

 

-- What you need to understand, Mark, is that language is the only thing I'm particularly good at. Mine is a second-rate mind all gussied-up by a first-rate command of English. It's a hat trick. An illusion. Not unlike the RIAA curve .

 

Tim

 

 

[babybear]

JC,

 

I am in the process of looking at digitizing vinyl and I am at the point of trying to select the hardware and software for the recording process. Digitizing vinyl appears to me to involve quite a bit more labor and time then ripping CD's so I'd like to do it as best that I can and since you have a fair amount of experience in doing this, I was wondering what hardware and software you use in the recording chain? Also, the same question for playback - what hardware and software - don't need to know your turntable, speakers or amplifiers, just whatever you use in the recording chain - phono preamp, ADC, connection from the ADC to the computer, the computer itself and associated software and similiar information for playback - computer, player software, DAC and the type of connection you use from the computer to your DAC.

 

I would appreciate any input from anyone else that has done this as well. I find it's most helpful to get the experience of others who have done this to help me make the most informed selection of gear for this. Thanks very much, Arnie

 

[markr]

.. While I do have a hardware phono pre - it isn't really highly regarded-, I am more interested in hearing the results of using the software 'pre' included with Pure Vinyl (as distorted as that may be.......) . Maybe I will find the time to try both hardware and software solutions eventually..... At any rate, you have provided some good information here - THOUGH, I have to say that 'Core audio is not a 'format' per se, it is the hardware layer on Macs that makes possible the sound that you hear when you use a Mac including: AAC, AC-3, AIFC, AIFF, MP3, SD2, and WAV.. Look here: http://developer.apple.com/audio/overview.html - thank you for your contribution! - markr

 

[Blu]

I hope this thread is not removed, Ash. As you indicated it is all down to preference, I have heard great digital (Reference Recordings 24/176.4, not on my system, until I have enough for a Weiss DAC 2) and I have heard great vinyl ("Dark Side of the Moon", original British pressing). I enjoy listening to music from both systems, and isn't music enjoyment the whole point of this hobby.

 

Quote Ash, " Nobody is dictating what people should and should not like...". Then you go and contradict yourself " I hope this thread is removed. This is not the place to discuss outdated technologies...". But Ash some people like vinyl, and have a library of it, which they would like to put onto their music servers.

 

I don't think that vinyl is outdated as it is starting to sell more copies all the time as young people are finding they prefer the sound of vinyl. You will find that a lot of bands these days are releasing new material on vinyl.

 

I would like to thank Chris for this forum, I have learned many helpful things from the many characters on this forum and no doubt I will learn more into the future.

 

Many thanks, Blu

 

[tfarney]

markr -- "JC

 

... in my case, you are preaching to the choir. You are also telling people what to like. I do not understand the percentages in either equation. Do you? These sort of post are really becoming tiresome. "

 

-- FWIW, mark, I didn't get that from JC's post at all. The facts of RIAA equalization and the distortions it causes between master and vinyl are simply that: facts. It doesn't mean people can't, or don't, like the way it sounds, and JC didn't say that. At least I didn't read it that way.

 

 

Tim

 

 

 

[markr]

I'm depressed too. And it doesn't have much to do with what is posted here or whether that affects what you have to sell sir. It has more to do with what folks find appropriate to say to one another, and the real reasons behind that. JCBlum was not well-intentioned in the post in question. I understand that. I have done it myself. Good for him in that he is an expert in transcribing. Why didn't he help instead of hindering in this particular instance, sir? My vinyl - from the eighties and WAY before that - sits here wanting to be heard. There are not other versions of that material available out there as far as I have seen. These recordings do not care what you or anyone else think about its sound. Nor do I. I simply want to archive it among MANY other things, most of which are digital. This is a website that can help to make doing that in a quality way, possible. That you find that inappropriate boggles my mind. Your agenda, and you obviously have one, is well known here. I fully understand the limitations of both vinyl and digital audio. Maybe others do not, I cannot help that. Could you please let those interested in something other than just buying digital audio have their say. Please stop being a bore.

 

[markr]

We agree to disagree. I did get that, but could be wrong. The whole post to me seemed to be 'much ado about nothing' though. I was actually looking for help and got a sermon instead. One that I don't need. MAYbe I'm being too sensitive. I don't know.

 

- dang it all. Ashley isn't helping......

 

[Blu]

markr, thanks for the link to info on Core Audio, the software layer in the Mac OS X operating system.

 

" Apple's Core Audio documentation states that "in creating this new architecture on Mac OS X, ... The primary goal is to deliver a high-quality, superior audio experience for Macintosh users" - Wikipedia.

 

" The Core Audio Format is a file format for storing audio, developed by Apple Inc.

Core Audio Format is designed to overcome limitations of older digital audio formats, including AIFF and WAV. Similar to the QuickTime .mov file format, .caf can contain many different audio formats, metadata tracks, and more. Not limited to 4 GB file size, a single .caf file can theoretically hold hundreds of years of audio.

Soundtrack Pro uses the .caf format extensively for its loop and sound effects library, particularly for surround-sound audio compressed with the Apple Lossless codec." - Wikipedia.

 

Sorry Chris, maybe this should be a new thread, I was checking Core Audio out from markr's link in the Pure Vinyl thread. I leave it up to you, you're the boss.

Blu

 

[tfarney]

I'd also like to ask you to review the history here on the board and re-consider your comments about Ashley. I think that review will show you that, while he is opinionated (as so many of us are) and his opinions are appropriately and unsurprisingly reflected in his company's products, he has, unlike some vendors here, gone out of his way NOT to promote his products on this board. If you want to know about AVI's products, you can click a paid ad on this page, but Ashley seldom mentions them. If we wanted to discuss people here with a commercial agenda (but no commercial contribution to the board) clearly reflected in their posts, we could find some. Well, one really blatant one I can think of, no need to name names, but it isn't Ashley James.

 

YMMV, but I'd ask for careful reconsideration of your accusation, as it is pretty pointed and sharp.

 

Tim

 

[audiozorro]

I generally like the sonics of vinyl playback better than CD playback. I also generally like the sonics of SACD playback better than CD playback. And I generally prefer the sonics of 24/88.2 or higher digital playback to 16/44.1 playback.

 

Purity and accuracy are important but they are not necessarily the chief wants of musical playback satisfaction. Recorded music is an illusion of real instruments, voices and sounds. The better the illusion, the better is the musical playback of the system. In some cases the illusion may even better the real event. In other cases the illusion may be a creation of something that never really happened. For lack of a better term, fictional audio can be just as enjoyable as fictional video.

 

JC, thanks for clearing up the capabilities of the Lynx L22. I was focused on the digital I/O specs and not the analog I/O specs.

 

Ashley, please don’t be depressed or fret over this thread. There is a lot of interest in converting vinyl to digital. And the fact that some people may prefer vinyl to digital or that Michael Fremmer feels that vinyl is superior is just as valid as your preference for digital to vinyl and your belief that digital is superior to vinyl. In my lifetime I don’t expect to change either yours or Fremmer’s beliefs, and fortunately I don’t want or have to.

 

And now back to Tim. Ashley has definitely not gone out of his way to promote his products, which to me speaks volumes for his character. I believe that I and others have sometimes thought that his forceful or unyielding opinions may negatively affect peoples’ opinions about his products, which would be undeserved.

 

 

[jcbrum]

Markr, you're talking like a bag of wind. You haven't understood my post at all. It was intended to help you and others by telling you about riaa, why it's there, and how to deal with it when digitizing records.

 

If you can't understand my grammar, or my humour, work harder till you can. Also start doing something about digitizing instead of just talking and theorizing about it. My comments will give you a start. When you have actually achieved something, then come and tell us about it. We probably will be interested to know how you got on.

 

Regards JCBrum.

 

[markr]

Well , I won't disagree that Ashley doesn't promote his products here. I cannot however, discount that he has something to sell. Nothing wrong with that though. EDIT: I actually WANT manufacturers to give their opinions here. They just need to be identified as being the opinion of a manufacturer. END EDIT.. This is a semblance of a free market after all. I didn't really see my comments as being that sharp. Maybe that is because I was looking at my comments through the sharpness of his unswerving criticism of what I find to be necessary in my audio life. He has chosen his mantra, I have chosen mine. I feel that mine is more versatile and varied and accepting of variance, ... don't know what his is (yeah, I do actually), but I find it much too rigid and unswerving for me. .... Not good for me.

 

I'm not apologizing Ashley, you understand. Just admitting that maybe I was a bit too harsh - you aren't selling anything here - I still feel that you are (and have been) harsh too.

 

I'm NOT kissing and making up.....

 

thanks Tim

 

[jcbrum]

 

Markr, you're talking like a bag of wind. You haven't understood my post at all. It was intended to help you and others by telling you about riaa, why it's there, and how to deal with it when digitizing records.

 

If you can't understand my grammar, or my humour, work harder till you can. Also start doing something about digitizing instead of just talking and theorizing about it. My comments will give you a start. When you have actually achieved something, then come and tell us about it. We probably will be interested to know how you got on.

 

Not holding my breath ........ Regards JCBrum.

 

ps I thought I posted this but it didn't appear on my screen so I'll do it again. Apologies if it comes up twice. jc.

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Hi JC - I'm not quite sure what your goal is by telling someone,

 

"If you can't understand my grammar, or my humour, work harder till you can."

 

"When you have actually achieved something, then come and tell us about it. We probably will be interested to know how you got on.

Not holding my breath"

 

If you're looking for a fight or to even some score etc... this is not the place. Sure there may have been some misunderstanding in previous posts, but why can't people worked toward a common goal? Responding to someone who took your post the wrong way, with some smart-ass comments doesn't get us anywhere and may only help someone's ego.

 

Responding with a clarification of your post is very helpful and would lead to a win-win situation for everyone.

 

 

 

 

 

[jcbrum]

Chris, I felt that my post was misunderstood. I only saw the thread a few minutes ago since I had been away for a few hours. - I was offended.

 

My comments aren't 'smartass' please withdraw that.

 

The best way to learn how to do this task is to make some practical attempts and then assess the results.

 

I earlier helped you to have a better understanding of the technology involved here. That didn't come from sitting on my bum pontificating on some forum. I learned how to do it by studying the science involved and making a practical application of that study. I commend that approach.

 

In the friendliest way possible ........... Regards JCBrum.

 

 

 

 

[markr]

Well, I understand your grammar, see no humor in it ( I went back and tried again ) - maybe I'm too thick - , and really am working to understand you JC.

 

On to the subject at hand - Are you saying that Pure Vinyl is not what one would want to use, either in the non-pre RIAA equalized mode or using my own pre without that eq? I have digitized vinyl audio via Sound Forge 8, using my own pre (so-so results) but would like to know more about what is out there.

 

Wow! You seem to be angry person, man. I'd chill if I were you.

 

 

 

[jcbrum]

Ok Markr, I've chilled, ........

 

I was angry, but not now ....

 

Personally I wouldn't use PV ...... but don't let that stop you ... I'm genuinely interested to know how you get on with it.

 

I haven't answered babybear's query as to what kit to use and can predict that "so-so" results, as you call it, are the norm until the skills are learned.

 

JC.

 

[markr]

... I will see if I can get something done with PV this week and report back. If I can get time, I will try some sort of control situation using Sound Forge or Logic/Cubase as well. Don't know If I'll get it done ..... looking for a job right now.....

 

Peace

- markr

 

[tfarney]

"I'm NOT kissing and making up.....

 

thanks Tim"

 

A good thing, I suppose. Because while I can't speak for Ashley, I'm NOT kissing you either. A manly hug, perhaps...

 

Tim

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Hi JC - We are on the same page about your post being misunderstood. I just think your response only hurt the thread. If it's clear that someone misunderstood your comments I don't think a harsh response is helpful in anyway and is likely to hurt credibility.

 

I really do thank you for your contributions here and specifically helping me. It's clear you are very good in this are of HiFi and I think everyone around here agrees.

 

[markr]

I have an idea about exactly how to do that....

 

[jcbrum]

Ok here goes with an attempt to help babybear,

 

90 per cent of the effort should go into playing the record properly. .... more of this in a minute ......

 

Psychology also plays it's role. When you make a digital copy of a vinyl record you are very forgiving of the original ('cause it's good ol' vinyl), and VERY critical of the digital file, 'cause it's digital - and you are looking hard for the flaws and the tiniest differences from what you THOUGHT you heard before.

 

Ashley has a good example of this, from Cambridge research I think, about how our minds fill in missing info when we subconsciously want it to be there, and not if we don't. So learn how to be objective in your listening assessments. I have heard Tim speak of ABX techniques.

 

Anyway back at the Ranch, you must play the record to the very best that your kit can achieve, otherwise you will not have made the best recording possible, and it will be enshrined forever in silicon as a failure !

 

Playing the record well involves cleaning it to within an inch of its life and safety. I use alcohol on vinyl, a smear of soap on 78's, and pure filtered distilled water. A special fine brush with stiff-ish hairs can be helpful.

 

When you are starting out use a very simple piece of software like LP Recorder for Windows, - It does NOTHING except make a wav file. .......... You should then be able to get a wav which when played back with LPR sounds exactly like the vinyl did on monitor, before you pressed the record button. ..... If thats not the case then some of your hardware is in question. Maybe the sound card, try a UA25, or UA202. Don't bother too much about bit rates, ... get the best results you can with 16/44.1 initially and move on to 24/96 later.

 

You must pay a lot of attention to getting the drive level, as displayed on the meters, correct. I like to record fairly hot, with lots of green, flashes of yellow, and very rarely one or two bars of red, BUT NO CLIPPING AT ALL. Run through the whole song to find the loudest passage and use that to set the level. This is where it's so helpful to have an analogue level control in the front of the ADC so as to drive it hard enough without overdriving the ADC into digital clipping. If yu haven't got enough drive level the recording will sound quiet and thin.

 

Critical listening of the file will then reveal 'vinyl' artifacts, .... clicks and pops etc .... learn to use Audacity and edit them out. Don't attempt any automatic processing stuff (de-noising, de-clicking, de-hissing) at this stage. Learn how to make an exact digital facsimile of the vinyl. 100 per cent is possible, but 99.9 pc just isn't good enough.

 

You will probably have achieved this by using your existing record player and phono stage, and thats quite ok.

 

So now you have acquired the best wav that you can make. Archive it, and work on a copy.

 

You might be able to identify areas that you don't think are right, .... a bit bassy perhaps, ..... a bit dull in the treble perhaps, .... muddy middle ? ... you can correct these by modifying the file using digital eq methods until the file more closely approaches what you think the original performance should sound like. You will actually be addressing some of the inadequacies of the vinyl system, and if you get good with practice, your digital file will sound better than your vinyl or shellac.

 

I repeat, 90% of the effort goes into playing the record perfectly, and the rest into making an EXACT digital copy.

 

Hope this helps someone. JCBrum.