The Great Cable and Interconnect Swindle: An Etiology

[fas42]

1 hour ago, gmgraves said:

OK that at least makes sense.

Why would a cable’s susceptibility to noise change over use? I’ll answer that. It doesn’t! That was one of the things we tested for. Not just susceptibility to noise, but the cable’s ability to self generate thermal noise; something that is not an issue in a small signal cable in a domestic setting. When a satellite is measuring tiny amounts of gas or a particular, minute type of radiation, signal to noise performance is orders of magnitude more important than in someone’s stereo system!

 

Well!! ... Talk about timing!!!

 

... Just did a test of how the new active speakers could handle Adele's 21 ... an album quite notorious for being "badly recorded" , 🤪.

 

OMG, it was a fail ...Big Time!!! Sounding awful, living up to all what audiophiles were saying about it ... Jeezus, was there really something so out of kilter with the internals of the speakers, that was clashing with the style of this recording! Mad scramble to try all sorts of things, including shutting down the whole house electrically; playing with volume, all the way down; resetting both the player and speakers by power cycling - slight gain here, but still pretty bad ... looking, looking, looking - how's the cable connecting the right speaker to the left sitting ... Ah hah!!!

 

These speakers work by the right hand unit being the master; the left is fully passive - an umbilical cable with separate conductors for the treble and mid/bass units connects the amps in the right hand unit with the drivers in the left - works fine. But, the damping I had inserted to stabilise the path of this cable had creeped - the hard surface of the umbilical outer cover was now resting, lightly, on another hard surface - a big no-no!

 

OK, just reset the damping - and the transformation happened ... SQ fully restored - Adele was singing her lungs out ... and it all sounded good ...

 

So, what happened? Well, those bloody parastics!! The fact of the cable not being correctly stabilised was enough to throw the internal electronics completely out of whack, subjectively ... QED.

 

Yes, cables matter ...

[gmgraves]

38 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 George

 You are playing with words.

 According to you, this phenomenon did not exist. The same applies to brand new and fresh stock large value Audiophile capacitors from different manufacturers. Some Audiophile large value electros take WEEKS, not hours to fully stabilise.

 

Alex

But it’s not permanent, Alex, so it’s not a burn-in.

 

[gmgraves]

15 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

Well!! ... Talk about timing!!!

 

... Just did a test of how the new active speakers could handle Adele's 21 ... an album quite notorious for being "badly recorded" , 🤪.

 

OMG, it was a fail ...Big Time!!! Sounding awful, living up to all what audiophiles were saying about it ... Jeezus, was there really something so out of kilter with the internals of the speakers, that was clashing with the style of this recording! Mad scramble to try all sorts of things, including shutting down the whole house electrically; playing with volume, all the way down; resetting both the player and speakers by power cycling - slight gain here, but still pretty bad ... looking, looking, looking - how's the cable connecting the right speaker to the left sitting ... Ah hah!!!

 

These speakers work by the right hand unit being the master; the left is fully passive - an umbilical cable with separate conductors for the treble and mid/bass units connects the amps in the right hand unit with the drivers in the left - works fine. But, the damping I had inserted to stabilise the path of this cable had creeped - the hard surface of the umbilical outer cover was now resting, lightly, on another hard surface - a big no-no!

 

OK, just reset the damping - and the transformation happened ... SQ fully restored - Adele was singing her lungs out ... and it all sounded good ...

 

So, what happened? Well, those bloody parastics!! The fact of the cable not being correctly stabilised was enough to throw the internal electronics completely out of whack, subjectively ... QED.

 

Yes, cables matter ...

You have quite an imagination, Frank. But you’re lucky in one respect. You can actually talk yourself into believing that a lousy sounding recording can be made into a good sounding recording by you just “fiddling” around.

[sandyk]

3 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

But it’s not permanent, Alex, so it’s not a burn-in.

 

Again, you are playing with words.

The change will normally remain as long as the equipment is used occasionally, however after several years in storage it may take a little while, but not as long as originally, to fully stabilise again

 

[sandyk]

22 minutes ago, fas42 said:

So, what happened? Well, those bloody parastics!! The fact of the cable not being correctly stabilised was enough to throw the internal electronics completely out of whack, subjectively ... QED.

 Frank

 I don't doubt that you heard a change for the better, but where can I buy one of those magic magnification devices ?

[gmgraves]

Just now, sandyk said:

Again, you are playing with words.

The change will normally remain as long as the equipment is used occasionally, however after several years in storage it may take a little while, but not as long as originally, to fully stabilise again

 

Ok, have it your own way, Alex, my friend. But we’re going to have agree to disagree about this. 

[One and a half]

1 hour ago, sandyk said:

NO ! It definitely is NOT !!!

  Virtually all NOS large value electros for example , benefit from further forming, and many DIY Audio members even use a " Cap Rack" to help quickly stabilise larger value electrolytic capacitors.

 Many hundreds of DIY Audio and other forum members  who have constructed the John Linsley Hood designed PSU Add-on  from the >800 PCBs made available for this project have found that the resulting SQ varies dramatically in SQ for around 72 hours as the large value Capacitance Multiplier electros reach stabilisation with the typically low 600mV across them. When using 2 parallel 4,700uF in that area some constructors found that the Current Limiter transistor often became quite warm initially.

Agreed, NOS electrolytic caps need to be reformed before use. I have seen evidence of applying full volts on old caps, it's like the effect from the film Alien, where the creature came from within. The cap juice spreads everywhere, it's a horrid job to clean. Reforming avoids a lot of hard work, and cap juice is conductive, so it really needs to be removed carefully.

 

Most caps, the large electros have a build date on them, they should be powered on within two years of the build date at full volts, if not reform them, the above method is ok, there are many others, current limiting is another, variable voltage over a period of time is another one or a combo of both, the electrons have to go back on the film in the cap and stay there, needs a time period which is not milliseconds.

[sandyk]

1 minute ago, gmgraves said:

Ok, have it your own way, Alex, my friend. But we’re going to have agree to disagree about this. 

 

1 minute ago, gmgraves said:

Ok, have it your own way, Alex, my friend. But we’re going to have agree to disagree about this. 

 

 George

•  When was the last time you were deeply involved in the DIY area ? 30 years ago perhaps ?

 Many members here can tell you similar things

[gmgraves]

1 minute ago, sandyk said:

 Frank

 I don't doubt that you heard a change for the better, but where can I buy one of those magic magnification devices ?

If Frank actually believes that he can make poor recordings sound like good recordings just by “messing around”, then he is actually ahead of the rest of us because he’s able to hear around lousy source material. I certainly can’t do that!

[gmgraves]

4 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

 

 George

•  When was the last time you were deeply involved in the DIY area ? 30 years ago perhaps ?

 Many members here can tell you similar things

It has been a while, but actually this has nothing to do with DIY. This has to do with electronics knowledge and the physics behind it. You think that burn-in and temporary thermal stabilization of parameters are the same thing. And that to insist that they are very different is just “semantics”. That’s OK. It’s also OK that I disagree. We’re still friends as far as I’m concerned.😇

[Allan F]

1 hour ago, sandyk said:

 George

 You are playing with words.

 According to you, this phenomenon did not exist. The same applies to brand new and fresh stock large value Audiophile capacitors from different manufacturers. Some Audiophile large value electros take WEEKS, not hours to fully stabilise.

 

Alex

 

When I had my amp upgraded to the Special Edition model, it involved a change in much of the circuitry, including the capacitors. I was unhappy with a particular aspect of the sound and communicated my concerns to Dan Wright of ModWright Instruments. The amp already had over 200 hours on it at the time. He advised me to have patience because their proprietary capacitors could take as much as 400 hours to completely burn in. He was right. It was not a case of me becoming accustomed to the negative characteristic because it was was both obvious and irritating with some material. It disappeared after an additional 100+ hours.

[sandyk]

11 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

It has been a while, but actually this has nothing to do with DIY. This has to do with electronics knowledge and the physics behind it. You think that burn-in and temporary thermal stabilization of parameters are the same thing. And that to insist that they are very different is just “semantics”. That’s OK. It’s also OK that I disagree. We’re still friends as far as I’m concerned.😇

 George

 Did you also read the reply by Gary ?  One and a half

 I suspect you also have some fondness for Frank too .

 

Kind Regards

Alex

[fas42]

56 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

You have quite an imagination, Frank. But you’re lucky in one respect. You can actually talk yourself into believing that a lousy sounding recording can be made into a good sounding recording by you just “fiddling” around.

 

You weren't there, George 😉 ... Bev was saying that is sounded 'orrible, because that's exactly how it was coming across - no matter how much you turned the volume down, the SQ was locked into this mediocre, midfi quality - the voice was flat, like an AM radio, and you just wanted to hit the Stop button, to give one's ears a break. But I kept it running, to try and track down where the issue was - I have had these sort of SQ 'dives' many times, over the years ... due to cable dressing issues.

 

Last word from Bev ... "It's absolutely BullShit that one has to worry about this sort of stuff! Why is there this much of a problem!!" ... ummm, err, yes, hmmm ...

[fas42]

1 hour ago, sandyk said:

 Frank

 I don't doubt that you heard a change for the better, but where can I buy one of those magic magnification devices ?

 

"magnification devices"... ???

[sandyk]

2 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

"magnification devices"... ???

 The ones that make differences much louder than they can possibly be .

[fas42]

3 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 The ones that make differences much louder than they can possibly be .

 

Not really ... once a rig gets into a high state of tune, then any "fall from grace" hits one like the proverbial ... what one is reacting to is the now excessive presence of distortion products, as compared to before. Note, "audiophile recordings" need not apply here - they are so super clean that one can do almost anything to them, and they still sound OK. "Difficult" recordings emphasise the difference like a wallop over the head - so in that sense they are the magnification device ...

[Summit]

If been used it's vintage tubes/caps.

 

NOS = new old stock; meaning that they have never been used.

[Summit]

All components are slowly changing over time. Some components are changing considerably more than others in their initial lifetime. This initial rapid change in SQ is known as the break in or burn in time or phase. Electricity (e.g. electrons) always try to find the shortest way between two points. Cables and many other components are made of material that is made up by “Metallic bonding”*. The delocalizing is higher in new gear there the metallic bonding haven’t reached its optimum yet. The metal is slowly changing its structure on an atomic level so that the electricity (electrons) can run faster and smother.   

 

*Metal bonding is the type of chemical bonding characteristic of metals. In a metal, the valence electrons of the metal atoms do not form pairs, as they do in non-metallic covalent bonds. They are also not located to specific atomic nuclei but move freely around the entire structure. This is not a completely random movement since the electrons are affected by mutual repulsion and these electrons are said to be "delocalized". This can be likened to an "electron cloud" that surrounds a giant structure of positively charged metal ions.

 

In a metal, the orbitals available to the valence electrons are so large that they surround the entire structure and the energy levels of the different orbitals are so close to each other that the energy difference can be neglected. Thus, the electrons can move "freely" without significant energy supply across the different orbitals and it is therefore usually said that the electrons move in energy bands. The free electrons constitute the cohesive force of the bond in the metal, and are behind several of the characteristic properties of the metals such as e.g. very good electrical conductivity, special luster and luster, flexibility and malleability etc.

 

[PYP]

13 hours ago, gmgraves said:

Electronics don’t “burn-in per se, but all can benefit from thermally stabilizing by leaving it on all the time (if practical) or warmed up for an hour before a listening session since leaving a power amp all the time is not practical.

 

Is there a measurable difference between first powering on and one hour later?  I agree the sound changes during that time, unless the manufacturer has made an effort to shorten that time (perhaps a low energy usage idle state that keeps some things warm but draws little current).  

[John Dyson]

11 hours ago, gmgraves said:

If Frank actually believes that he can make poor recordings sound like good recordings just by “messing around”, then he is actually ahead of the rest of us because he’s able to hear around lousy source material. I certainly can’t do that!

I agree with the sentiments, because very intelligent and well educated people have been trying to 'fix' recordings at least back to the time of the Radiotron Designers Handbook, and even before.  IMO, it is best, if one is going to try to 'fix' a recording, to try to fix the impairments one at a time.  Each impairment has very specific characteristics -- spectrum of a tick or pop, tape hiss is different than its vinyl brethren of various kinds of 'rumble' or 'vinyl surface noise'.  Each one has different characteristics, and even an adaptive general purpose FFT spectral technique misses the mark for most specific impairments.  (perhaps the FFT technique might be a last finishing polish to a recording, but must be used very carefully.)  Admittedly, the general techniques are getting better and better, but they become tricky when considering the side effects of the 'repairs' create worse problems.   All of this doesn't even consider stereo imaging issues (time distortions)...

--

'messing around' will not do much to substantively improve the objective characteristics of a recording:  VERY INTELLIGENT people have been trying to do it for years, and with varying results.  Generically 'messing around' in a non-scientific way would be on the level of Edison's experiments:  once the technology becomes sophisticated at all, then ad-hoc playing around becomes ineffective.  Edison was smart enough to partially recognize this, and start hiring competent people, and have them operate on his general ideas.   Edison had a general good idea about power transmission, but DC would have been a botch.  An exquisitely competent genius in electricity and applications of electro magnetics was needed.  Of course, Edison's ego, arrogance and attitude caused him to lose Tesla.

 

I am sure that Edison was very satisfied with his own concepts, but was misguided probably by his ego.  We are ALL easily misguided by our egos - just have to realize that fact.  Once we fully recognize and respect the fact  that 'genius' doesn't come around very often, then we realize that working smart and VERY diligently  is the way that most of us get things done.   Invention doesn't come easy...    Sadly, US patent laws have been too generous naming the results of 'messing around'  as 'inventions'.

 

John

 

[gmgraves]

19 hours ago, sandyk said:

 George

 Did you also read the reply by Gary ?  One and a half

 I suspect you also have some fondness for Frank too .

 

Kind Regards

Alex

Yep! The dielectric has to be reformed. It’s not permanent.

[gmgraves]

7 hours ago, John Dyson said:

I agree with the sentiments, because very intelligent and well educated people have been trying to 'fix' recordings at least back to the time of the Radiotron Designers Handbook, and even before.  IMO, it is best, if one is going to try to 'fix' a recording, to try to fix the impairments one at a time.  Each impairment has very specific characteristics -- spectrum of a tick or pop, tape hiss is different than its vinyl brethren of various kinds of 'rumble' or 'vinyl surface noise'.  Each one has different characteristics, and even an adaptive general purpose FFT spectral technique misses the mark for most specific impairments.  (perhaps the FFT technique might be a last finishing polish to a recording, but must be used very carefully.)  Admittedly, the general techniques are getting better and better, but they become tricky when considering the side effects of the 'repairs' create worse problems.   All of this doesn't even consider stereo imaging issues (time distortions)...

Tape hiss never bothered me, still doesn’t. What I consider bad recordings are those which are recorded using a score of microphones and have no real soundstage. Or recordings with no dynamic range, or recordings that are dull and lifeless, with no deep bass, no clear treble, high distortion, veiled midrange, etc.  Any of those characteristics will make a recording unlistenable to my ears. Some have more than one of these shortcomings, and some, unfortunately, have all of them!

 

[sandyk]

27 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

Yep! The dielectric has to be reformed. It’s not permanent.

George 

As far as I am concerned , if it lasts the typical service life of the equipment it is installed in, it is effectively permanent .

 However, to achieve this ,the electros need to be kept as far as possible away from other heat sources such as Power resistors and Vacuum tubes. Many earlier valve Headphone Amplifiers were problematical in this area, including several compact designs from Musical Fidelity which even ended up with charred or discoloured circuit boards.

 

Regards

Alex 

[sandyk]

2 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

Tape hiss never bothered me, still doesn’t.

 

Hmmm. I wonder why ? Could it be age related perhaps ? 😉

 

[gmgraves]

18 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

You weren't there, George 😉 ... Bev was saying that is sounded 'orrible, because that's exactly how it was coming across - no matter how much you turned the volume down, the SQ was locked into this mediocre, midfi quality - the voice was flat, like an AM radio, and you just wanted to hit the Stop button, to give one's ears a break. But I kept it running, to try and track down where the issue was - I have had these sort of SQ 'dives' many times, over the years ... due to cable dressing issues.

 

Last word from Bev ... "It's absolutely BullShit that one has to worry about this sort of stuff! Why is there this much of a problem!!" ... ummm, err, yes, hmmm ...

Frank, that’s total nonsense and I’m sure that you MUST know it too. Either you’re putting us on, or, you tend to greatly exaggerate the results of your little experiments. There is no real third choice. Surely you must realize that if dressing cables made the sort of difference that you are reporting, others would have found it too. But instead of just ridiculing you, I tried to replicate your results. I have a pair of TUK brand powered speakers in my office similar in concept to yours. I.E. one speaker has the electronics and the other doesn’t. The main speaker (right channel)  connects to the left channel with just a cable. I moved that cable every way it was possible; draped it over the back of the desk, even laid the cable on inverted ceramic demitasse cups, to get it up off the desk. Nothing made the slightest perceivable difference in the sound. Even if it had, it would have only affected the left channel, the channel connected with the cable, because the right channel doesn’t have a cable!