Audio_ELF Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 I assume the $700 is for a used Mac Mini but if you are referring to a 2012 with SSD and 8 GB RAM off the shelf please point me in the direction. A bog standard Mac Mini is $600 (give or take a few cents) - 4GB and 500GB HDD. The cheapest Mac Mini with factory fitted SSD and 8GB is $1100 - 8GB with 256GB SSD. Of course you could replace the HDD with an SSD and add memory for much less. The price of the basic MacMini is very comparable to a Dell machine BTW. Eloise Eloise --- ...in my opinion / experience... While I agree "Everything may matter" working out what actually affects the sound is a trickier thing. And I agree "Trust your ears" but equally don't allow them to fool you - trust them with a bit of skepticism. keep your mind open... But mind your brain doesn't fall out. Link to comment
ted_b Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 While I respect your point of view Ted, surely if you are prepared to build your own CAPS then you can take a $700 MacMini and add your own SSD for around $150. And why are you buying the "Max'd" mini - assuming you mean the higher speed processor when you'd CAPS has a much lower powered processor. As Paul said "equivalent" cost I think you lost that bet (IMO). Eloise ? You lost me. There is no real DIY market on the OSX side; it's mainly proprietary..which carries a cost, sometimes large cost. My point was that I can easily (no soldering, no real DIY talents) build a much better sounding (regardless of specs) music server for less $$ in the Windows 8 world right now. I can. "We're all bozos on this bus"....F.T. My JRIver tutorial videos Actual JRIver tutorial MP4 video links My eleven yr old SACD Ripping Guide for PS3 (needs updating but still works) US Technical Advisor, NativeDSD.com Link to comment
4est Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 I'll make that bet, for music servers that is. My CAPS V2+ is significantly better at music than my Mac Mini. A new one (mine is 3 weeks old) is about $700; a max'd Mini for music is quite a bit more (not sure 3X but not sure where that multiplier came from...he said, "over a few years" ya know). My earlier post was not about comparing MAC vs pc per se, it was about the obsolescence argument with music servers. Half this price is the SOtM card. Deduct that (the mini does not have comparable one) add $100 for Windows and you are only at $450 for a functioning Win 7/8 server- under $400 if you hustle and get Win 8 whilst on sale. Purdy darn cheap if you are just running it as a music server. If you are looking to do ANYTHING beyond music with it, the Mini would run circles around it however. Forrest: Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP> Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz Link to comment
Audio_ELF Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 ? You lost me. There is no real DIY market on the OSX side; it's mainly proprietary..which carries a cost, sometimes large cost. My point was that I can easily (no soldering, no real DIY talents) build a much better sounding (regardless of specs) music server for less $$ in the Windows 8 world right now. I can. Ted... It's tricky to do, but you can disassemble a Mac Mini and install a (standard / generic) SSD. That was my point. It's not much trickier than building a CAPS. It's easy to compare apples to the orange of a DIY computer. Lets see someone properly compare an Apple to a Dell or Acer or HP. The arguments don't stack up (against Apple) that way and its a fairer comparison. Eloise Eloise --- ...in my opinion / experience... While I agree "Everything may matter" working out what actually affects the sound is a trickier thing. And I agree "Trust your ears" but equally don't allow them to fool you - trust them with a bit of skepticism. keep your mind open... But mind your brain doesn't fall out. Link to comment
Paul R Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 The standard C.A.P.S. V2 machine is $1400. A standard Mac Mini is $599, plus $50 for memory, and $150 or less for an SSD drive. I think in the $700 DIY C.A.P.S. V2 cost, you left out the cost of the OS ($300) and JRiver ($50). That's half again the cost of your DIY! -Paul I'll make that bet, for music servers that is. My CAPS V2+ is significantly better at music than my Mac Mini. A new one (mine is 3 weeks old) is about $700; a max'd Mini for music is quite a bit more (not sure 3X but not sure where that multiplier came from...he said, "over a few years" ya know). My earlier post was not about comparing MAC vs pc per se, it was about the obsolescence argument with music servers. Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC. Robert A. Heinlein Link to comment
Paul R Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Eh - makes that $300 for Windows (Windows Ultimate is specified, and more comparable to MacOS than Windows Home Entry Level) and add a high quality Firewire interface to the PC. That easily adds up the difference. -Paul Half this price is the SOtM card. Deduct that (the mini does not have comparable one) add $100 for Windows and you are only at $450 for a functioning Win 7/8 server- under $400 if you hustle and get Win 8 whilst on sale. Purdy darn cheap if you are just running it as a music server. If you are looking to do ANYTHING beyond music with it, the Mini would run circles around it however. Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC. Robert A. Heinlein Link to comment
4est Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Eh - makes that $300 for Windows (Windows Ultimate is specified, and more comparable to MacOS than Windows Home Entry Level) and add a high quality Firewire interface to the PC. That easily adds up the difference. -Paul Sounds like a Hackintosh is in order with a mobo like the DN2800MT! Forrest: Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP> Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz Link to comment
Metralla Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 It's tricky to do, but you can disassemble a Mac Mini and install a (standard / generic) SSD. I'd like to claim that it was tricky, as that would make me seem more competent than I am. But in fact, it was easy. Regards, Geoff Link to comment
ted_b Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 The standard C.A.P.S. V2 machine is $1400. A standard Mac Mini is $599, plus $50 for memory, and $150 or less for an SSD drive. I think in the $700 DIY C.A.P.S. V2 cost, you left out the cost of the OS ($300) and JRiver ($50). That's half again the cost of your DIY! -Paul Wrong Paul, sorry but wrong. I'm not an idiot; I know how to add up the cost of my own design. My CAPS V2+ thread here is well documented; I have a full Bill of Materials listed. Windows 8 preview is free; then upgrade to Windows pro is $40, J River is included in price (although PM or A+ is not in yours). The only reason it is even $700 is the SOtM card..do firewire and it's $400 all in (although the SotM card is a big part of the reason this server out performs my others by a wide margin). A new mac Mini with 8 Gb and SSD is not $800 but even if it is it is MORE than mine ($800 is more than $700). I will stop now...this is silly. "We're all bozos on this bus"....F.T. My JRIver tutorial videos Actual JRIver tutorial MP4 video links My eleven yr old SACD Ripping Guide for PS3 (needs updating but still works) US Technical Advisor, NativeDSD.com Link to comment
Paul R Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Your right Ted, it is silly. A brand new Mac Mini with 8gb of aftermarket RAM ($42) and a 60gb SSD drive ($84) is right at $725 dollars, with warranty, OS, iTunes, and quite a bit more. A comparable HP off the shelf PC is $600 - $800, before the multi-hundred dollar upgrade to Windows Ultimate. iTunes is also provided by Apple, for Windows, free of charge. And you don't have to build it yourself. And the Mac will run Windows, if you have to, just fine. The reverse is not true. Like I said, the current CAPS v2 is $1400 for the averge Joe- the MAC- $725. $850 if you buy Amarra for it. Paul Wrong Paul, sorry but wrong. I'm not an idiot; I know how to add up the cost of my own design. My CAPS V2+ thread here is well documented; I have a full Bill of Materials listed. Windows 8 preview is free; then upgrade to Windows pro is $40, J River is included in price (although PM or A+ is not in yours). The only reason it is even $700 is the SOtM card..do firewire and it's $400 all in (although the SotM card is a big part of the reason this server out performs my others by a wide margin). A new mac Mini with 8 Gb and SSD is not $800 but even if it is it is MORE than mine ($800 is more than $700). I will stop now...this is silly. Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC. Robert A. Heinlein Link to comment
elcorso Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Your right Ted, it is silly. A brand new Mac Mini with 8gb of aftermarket RAM ($42) and a 60gb SSD drive ($84) is right at $725 dollars, with warranty, OS, iTunes, and quite a bit more. A comparable HP off the shelf PC is $600 - $800, before the multi-hundred dollar upgrade to Windows Ultimate. iTunes is also provided by Apple, for Windows, free of charge. And you don't have to build it yourself. And the Mac will run Windows, if you have to, just fine. The reverse is not true. Like I said, the current CAPS v2 is $1400 for the averge Joe- the MAC- $725. $850 if you buy Amarra for it. Paul Paul What is very expensive is a very good Linear PSU. But is expensive for both worlds. And easy to install in Ted CAPS V2 +(as external to an external connector already built on the MoBo). Once upon a time I opened a Mac Mini in order to change the inside HD, Spinning to SSD, and even if I have experience in DIY it's some kind of "brain surgery", believe me. You can order the Mini from Apple with the SSD, but they charge you too much, then I wanted to install the SuperTalent SSD (one of the best, regarding noise, if not the best) Ted Need some explanation, but in English for not Americans, ha, ha, ha. How are your external hard drives formatted (where the music library resides). Under Windows or Mac standards? Thanks, Roch Link to comment
Paul R Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Actually, I would trust Ted's build stuff more than a Mac, but that is just because of who built it. -Paul Paul What is very expensive is a very good Linear PSU. But is expensive for both worlds. And easy to install in Ted CAPS V2 +(as external to an external connector already built on the MoBo). Once upon a time I opened a Mac Mini in order to change the inside HD, Spinning to SSD, and even if I have experience in DIY it's some kind of "brain surgery", believe me. You can order the Mini from Apple with the SSD, but they charge you too much, then I wanted to install the SuperTalent SSD (one of the best, regarding noise, if not the best) Ted Need some explanation, but in English for not Americans, ha, ha, ha. How are your external hard drives formatted (where the music library resides). Under Windows or Mac standards? Thanks, Roch Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC. Robert A. Heinlein Link to comment
ted_b Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Roch, My music is stored on a Synology gigabit-ethernet NAS, in ext4 format. "We're all bozos on this bus"....F.T. My JRIver tutorial videos Actual JRIver tutorial MP4 video links My eleven yr old SACD Ripping Guide for PS3 (needs updating but still works) US Technical Advisor, NativeDSD.com Link to comment
mwheelerk Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 I am hoping we do see this by years end. "A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it is not open." Frank Zappa Link to comment
mantis Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 I gave it a run on the PC side and it's fantastic. Very polished software and I can see why people would like it better then Itunes. Apple could easily clean up Itunes for high rez use and fix the output lock issue. Itunes also could offer High rez files and I'm sure many would buy them. Just not the mass as most could care less about the best overall sound quality like we do. Shame. Link to comment
mwheelerk Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 I am still anxious to see this available especially with the release of iTunes 11. One thing I would like to know is if some have both a Mac based system using any of the well thought of players (Amarra, PM, A+ etc) and a Windows system using JRMC for playback and how does the quality of sound compare? "A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it is not open." Frank Zappa Link to comment
ted_b Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 I've posted about this many times, especially in my thread about my CAPS V2+server. My CAPS server, and J River, handily out shine my Mac Mini and any of its better players (PM, A+), both setups fully tweeked. Although not a simple comparison (as both hardware and software are different) I think J River sounds great, and may be the best I've used. It easily wins for ease of use, unassuming DSD support, DSF (and FLAC, etc) tagging flexibility and comprehensiveness, and the jremote iPad app is king too. "We're all bozos on this bus"....F.T. My JRIver tutorial videos Actual JRIver tutorial MP4 video links My eleven yr old SACD Ripping Guide for PS3 (needs updating but still works) US Technical Advisor, NativeDSD.com Link to comment
Paul R Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 (grin) Well, we will see soon when JRMC comes out on a Mac. Sorry, I believe you really love your PC based build, but nothing seems to sound as good as a Mac to me, not to mention how little trouble they give me. Saying such just cursed me - the standalone drive on the Macbook just went south. Thank goodness I have great backups. -Paul I've posted about this many times, especially in my thread about my CAPS V2+server. My CAPS server, and J River, handily out shine my Mac Mini and any of its better players (PM, A+), both setups fully tweeked. Although not a simple comparison (as both hardware and software are different) I think J River sounds great, and may be the best I've used. It easily wins for ease of use, unassuming DSD support, DSF (and FLAC, etc) tagging flexibility and comprehensiveness, and the jremote iPad app is king too. Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC. Robert A. Heinlein Link to comment
mwheelerk Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 I've posted about this many times, especially in my thread about my CAPS V2+server. My CAPS server, and J River, handily out shine my Mac Mini and any of its better players (PM, A+), both setups fully tweeked. Although not a simple comparison (as both hardware and software are different) I think J River sounds great, and may be the best I've used. It easily wins for ease of use, unassuming DSD support, DSF (and FLAC, etc) tagging flexibility and comprehensiveness, and the jremote iPad app is king too. Thanks Ted. I know I had read some comparisons before and it might have been from you but I could not find them. I do want to stay on the Mac and anticipate I would give this a go on release "A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it is not open." Frank Zappa Link to comment
Metralla Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 I do want to stay on the Mac and anticipate I would give this a go on release Me too Regards, Geoff Link to comment
Toddc2 Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 One thing I would like to know is if some have both a Mac based system using any of the well thought of players (Amarra, PM, A+ etc) and a Windows system using JRMC for playback and how does the quality of sound compare? I use both a PC with JRMC and a MBP with Amarra. I prefer the SQ of the PC with JRMC, to my ears it throws a better soundstage. The mac also sounds slightly brighter. However, I find myself using the mac more often. Contrary to some other posts, I find JRMC difficult to use. The GUI control in Theater mode mystifies me... 2012 MBP (OSX 10.11 and Amarra Symphony w/IRC)-> Revelation Dual Conduit USB -> Berkeley Alpha USB -> Verastarr Silver Signature AES -> Devialet D250-> Siltech 550L -> KEF 104/2 (Steve Nugent Custom). Power conditioning Audience Adept AR2p -> Verastarr Grand Illusion, Siltech Explorer 270p and Crystal Cable Standard Diamond Analog: VPI Classic 3, Sumiko Pearwood Celebration ii, Siltech 770i RCA Link to comment
mwheelerk Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 I use both a PC with JRMC and a MBP with Amarra. I prefer the SQ of the PC with JRMC, to my ears it throws a better soundstage. The mac also sounds slightly brighter. However, I find myself using the mac more often. Contrary to some other posts, I find JRMC difficult to use. The GUI control in Theater mode mystifies me... Thanks. I am intrigued by JRMC for Mac and especially when reading a lot of negative stuff about iTunes 11 however I made the move to iTunes 11 yesterday and so far I have found only minor issues and those are more attributable to lack of knowledge of how to navigate and what views I do have and do not have certain selections available. It has played flawlessly. "A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it is not open." Frank Zappa Link to comment
Paul R Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 Hi guys- any chance we are gonna have a sweet sounding Christmas present this year? (Grin) Paul Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC. Robert A. Heinlein Link to comment
Custom71 Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 When it's all said and done it would be interesting to compare the sound quality of the almighty JRiver running on a Windows box vs a Mac... Link to comment
jtwrace Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 When it's all said and done it would be interesting to compare the sound quality of the almighty JRiver running on a Windows box vs a Mac... +1 W10 NUC i7 (Gen 10) > Roon (Audiolense FIR) > Motu UltraLite mk5 > (4) Hypex NCore NC502MP > JBL M2 Master Reference +4 subs Watch my Podcast https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXMw_bZWBMtRWNJQfTJ38kA/videos Link to comment
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