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The Optimal Sample Rate for Quality Audio


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The strange thing to me is the converters that have shown me absolute Magic at 4x rates (176.4k and 192k) --"flawed", in my view by nothing other than the fact that they sound more transparent than any in my experience and by a good country mile-- also outperform the others I've compared them to at 96k (in blind tests, where none of the listeners -all colleagues- knew which converter was which until the results were tabulated).

 

I'm all for electronic measurements but wonder sometimes that a lot of folks don't seem to recognize their credence in these is also subjective. The measurements provide a map. The map (to borrow from Korzybski) should not be confused with the "territory", which in the case of devices whose only purpose - at least as far as I'm aware - is to be *listened to*, is the listening.

 

I know some folks disagree with this. I'd be curious to hear from any of them if they picked their playback system without listening to it. Perhaps I'm missing something but as I see it, if the numbers are indeed capable of describing everything an astute listener will hear, they should be sufficient for selecting all the components in a system. Yet I haven't met anyone who will say outright that they picked their system based only on the specifications, without audition of any of the components and did not listen at all until the system was assembled. (I'd also be very curious to hear such a system.)

 

To be clear, I am *not* suggest measurements are not useful or important. On the contrary: I feel they are quite useful and quite important. But when the experience and the measurements do not agree, particularly when we're talking about an experiential phenomenon like listening, I'm going to question how those measurements apply to the listening and not the other way 'round.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

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I agree with the mathematical points Dan raised; although, I'm not fond of the use of percentages in discussions of something that is essentially logarithmic. Anyway, many here still fail to grasp the nuances of Shannon-Nyquist. But in all fairness, the foundational maths behind it (called PDE's or partial differential equations) isn't exactly easy.

Rob C

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Theory demands a perfect “reconstruction tool” filter. In practice, real world filters require sampling a little faster than twice the audio bandwidth. For 20 KHz audio bandwidth, the theory requires at least 40 KHz sample rate. The 44.1 KHz standard provides 4.1 KHz margin. The margin for the filter (from the theoretical filter) is 100*(44.1KHz-2*20KHz)/(2*20KHz) = 10.25%

 

What is often ignored, here too, is affect of length (steepness) of the filter to perceived sound. IOW, length of pre- and post-ringing.

 

As I've stated earlier, IMO, optimal sampling rate is such where you can fit entire impulse response of the reconstruction filter into half-wave of 20 kHz sine while having stop-band attenuation of 2^bits at all image bands (all frequencies above fs/2). At 8x rate you thus have about 8 FIR-taps to spend.

 

But of course those kind of documents tend to conveniently ignore things that don't fit into point of view of the presenter.

Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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The latest I saw claims that faster sampling yields better stereo location (time resolution). The argument is false. Faster sampling offers the ability to process wider bandwidth, but has no impact what so ever on stereo location!

8. Faster sampling for capturing bandwidth that we do not hear (ultrasonic) is not wise. If we did not hear it (or feel it) we don’t need it. If we did hear it (or feel it) it is not ultrasonic, it is audible bandwidth (by definition).

I disagree. As I stated earlier, temporal resolution is not the same thing as timing performance. While it is true we cannot hear ultrasonics (hence the term "ultra"), experiments in auditory neuroscience have indicated the localization of sound objects (and their identification against a noise background) relies not only on interaural timing differences (ITDs), but interaural level differences (ILDs) and spatial cues in the spectrum also.

The energy leakage of a window function in a filter is the root cause of ringing. Apodizing can help to reduce pre-ringing to a minimum. However, it also introduces new problems, such as nonlinearity, as well as doesn't fix the problem of post-ringing. The more familiar (or the more natural) the characteristics of a sound, the more susceptible we are to subtle differences. The measurable distortion in gear based on vacuum tubes is typically much bigger than in solid state gear. However, this does not necessarily also mean vacuum tubes are "completely useless"...

Moreover, the invisible flicker in the backlight of an LCD TV is invisible. However, this does not also mean it cannot cause sore eyes or a headache in the long run. The impact of audio quality on humans stretches much farther than what the mathematicians and the electronics engineers think, and IMO the bottom line is people shouldn't mix psychoacoustics with marketing.

If you had the memory of a goldfish, maybe it would work.
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The Simple fact is many of us, oh I don't know. Maybe the 40% of people who do NOT live in urban areas. Most of us only get one shot at stuff. We do not have an array of things delivered to us, play with them and send them back. Like children in a sandbox trying out toys.

I'd be curious to hear from any of them if they picked their playback system without listening to it... Yet I haven't met anyone who will say outright that they picked their without audition of any of the components and did not listen at all until the system was assembled. (I'd also be very curious to hear such a system.)
Aloha Berry, McLearn sells out a fleet of cars before any are delivered. We do not have an array of things available for us to test, any more than test drive every car that was ever made before we become wedded to a brand. Pretty much, we read all this B.S. about what things we sound, or drive like. We are forced to buy it, and we be stuck with it for many years.
mclaren-f1-doors-open-thumbnail.jpg

We might make adjustments if we can afford it, but I think you will find in the real world most of us do not get to sample the material things that we own before it is to late to reasonably turn them back in. We have no way to test the equipment or the outlandish claims of Madison avenue advertising. I have bought cars before they were released. There was nothing to compare them with.

 

It is the same with pre-orders on audio equipment. "Buy on spec, shall be the whole of the law." So let me make this clear. I picked my playback system without listening to it. Most of the things, material, objects that we buy are based only on the specifications, without audition of any of the components, and were not listened to at all until the system was assembled at home (or on stage).

 

1035573157_KHnDv-L-1.jpg

I asked Roger McQuinn about this at the Troubadour in California one night when he got back from playing Banjo up at Bob Dylan's house up in the canyon. He told me he just walked into a McIntosh store and bought a complete system and had it delivered to his house. Player, pre-amp speakers the whole bit. My dad ordered tons of cars before they came out. Do you think a test drive in a car that you will have for many years has any real meaning. I laugh at people taking test drives. Do you need a test drive to own a Porsche or a Ferrari?

 

No you put you money down wait forever as time will stretch like you are sitting on a hot stove, and as long as it is up to specs, specs that you may have only heard about. You will be happy.

 

images_tracks_Roger_McGuinn_-_Old_Plank_Road_-_2009113040640582.w_290.h_290.m_crop.a_center.v_to.jpg

 

I don't believe city people even live in a place where they can crank the volume up like I listen to it in the country. What do you know about sound. Neil Young plays in a Barn. You take a 60x40 concert stage and try to reproduce it in a closet. Just like you drive your 200-mph Shelby's and live with short spurts in the realm of the densely packed.

 

So let me make this clear I picked my playback system without listening to it. I bought my Porsche without driving it. I have gotten past the point of no return with chicks based only on her Specs.

 

jerrywall.jpg

How could anyone hear a sound system before they set it up?

 

It is not even possible, there are two many variables. The material, the room, the harmonicas of everything including the comfortableness of the listener. Once things settle in they do not sound the same, anymore than the twelfth night feels like the first time. I have never heard of anything so ridiculous in all of my life. That people listen to there playback system before they bought it.

The Driver smiled when he lost his pursuer...

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Hi Sumflow,

 

You don't need a dealer near you to try out different cables (and other items).

I've used the Cable Company many times and find their service to be outstanding.

They charge a modest fee for rentals, let you hang on to what you've rented for two weeks and if you purchase anything from them, they deduct what you've spent on rentals in the last year from the purchase price.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

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Hi Sumflow,

 

You don't need a dealer near you to try out different cables (and other items).

I've used the Cable Company many times and find their service to be outstanding.

They charge a modest fee for rentals, let you hang on to what you've rented for two weeks and if you purchase anything from them, they deduct what you've spent on rentals in the last year from the purchase price.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

 

As Barry states that has also been my experience with The Cable Company. In fact I rented all the cables I eventually purchased from them. They were extremely helpful and easy to deal with. Some of the best service I have ever experienced. Not only cables, but other accessories as well which is very advantageous as one can assemble a nuanced system before purchasing to determine the synergy.

Best,

Richard

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Not everybody lives near a city.

I've used the Cable Company many times and find their service to be outstanding.
I think only 3% of consumers will take stuff back. It implies that they made a mistake. People have other priorities. It is not that big a deal. Audio shows only go to population centers (cities). If the manufactures only sold to people who came to audio shows to hear there stuff, how long do you think they would stay in business?

 

56194785.jpg

Percentage wise nobody knows what there sound system will sound like before they buy it. It can take half a century to put a good sound system together, how can a person hear that before they bring it home?

 

 

The Driver smiled when he lost his pursuer...

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The Simple fact is many of us, oh I don't know. Maybe the 40% of people who do NOT live in urban areas. Most of us only get one shot at stuff. We do not have an array of things delivered to us, play with them and send them back. Like children in a sandbox trying out toys.Aloha Berry, McLearn sells out a fleet of cars before any are delivered. We do not have an array of things available for us to test, any more than test drive every car that was ever made before we become wedded to a brand. Pretty much, we read all this B.S. about what things we sound, or drive like. We are forced to buy it, and we be stuck with it for many years.

We might make adjustments if we can afford it, but I think you will find in the real world most of us do not get to sample the material things that we own before it is to late to reasonably turn them back in. We have no way to test the equipment or the outlandish claims of Madison avenue advertising. I have bought cars before they were released. There was nothing to compare them with.

 

It is the same with pre-orders on audio equipment. "Buy on spec, shall be the whole of the law." So let me make this clear. I picked my playback system without listening to it. Most of the things, material, objects that we buy are based only on the specifications, without audition of any of the components, and were not listened to at all until the system was assembled at home (or on stage).

 

I asked Roger McQuinn about this at the Troubadour in California one night when he got back from playing Banjo up at Bob Dylan's house up in the canyon. He told me he just walked into a McIntosh store and bought a complete system and had it delivered to his house. Player, pre-amp speakers the whole bit. My dad ordered tons of cars before they came out. Do you think a test drive in a car that you will have for many years has any real meaning. I laugh at people taking test drives. Do you need a test drive to own a Porsche or a Ferrari?

 

No you put you money down wait forever as time will stretch like you are sitting on a hot stove, and as long as it is up to specs, specs that you may have only heard about. You will be happy.

 

 

I don't believe city people even live in a place where they can crank the volume up like I listen to it in the country. What do you know about sound. Neil Young plays in a Barn. You take a 60x40 concert stage and try to reproduce it in a closet. Just like you drive your 200-mph Shelby's and live with short spurts in the realm of the densely packed.

 

So let me make this clear I picked my playback system without listening to it. I bought my Porsche without driving it. I have gotten past the point of no return with chicks based only on her Specs.

 

How could anyone hear a sound system before they set it up?

 

It is not even possible, there are two many variables. The material, the room, the harmonicas of everything including the comfortableness of the listener. Once things settle in they do not sound the same, anymore than the twelfth night feels like the first time. I have never heard of anything so ridiculous in all of my life. That people listen to there playback system before they bought it.

 

Hope music is your therapy, 'cause the above sounds bitter. Maybe you meant at least some of it tongue in cheek?

 

The majority of places I've lived for the past 30+ years had more livestock than people nearby. But when I was ready to plunk down serious change on an audio system, I spent most weekends driving hundreds of miles to three states to audition equipment over a period of about a year before I had settled on a complete system. Everything I've bought since then I listened to for a good long time before I purchased; or it cost less than $200; and/or it was made by someone I'd had years of good experience with before that.

 

(Same with cars, by the way - any manufacturer I hadn't had experience with before, I at least researched to the max, including frequency of repair statistics, and test drove, maybe even had it on extended rental. I wouldn't buy a Porsche without a test drive; maybe a Ferrari, but that I could likely resell for as much or more than I paid. I rented an Alfa Romeo convertible for a week once; looked great, sure sounded like a romantic thing to have, but I wound up liking the Acura Integra a lot better. I was on a healthy expense account, so price didn't really matter, just liked driving the Acura.)

 

The result has been that I've loved listening to music on my system for the 20+ years that I've had my system. I tend to keep components, and even cables, for decades. Same amp and pre-amp for 20+ years, recently replaced speaker cables and DAC after the originals lasted 20+ years, have the same turntable going on 30 years.... Yeah, it's more time and effort at the beginning, but you get to settle back and enjoy yourself for a *long* time afterward if you do it right to start with.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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[video=youtube_share;aoO2q8g7I88]

A more detailed picture may require more pixels, but more audio detail does NOT require more samples. There is an “electronic tool” (filter) that enables recovering ALL of the audio from a limited number of samples.
I think he makes that point here. It is not the sampling that is important so much as increasing the bit-rate.

The Driver smiled when he lost his pursuer...

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[video=youtube_share;aoO2q8g7I88]I think he makes that point here. It is not the sampling that is important so much as increasing the bit-rate.

 

I think my brain got blurred.

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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