Article: Berkeley Audio Design Alpha USB Review

[easternlethal]

I'm not sure why you're interpreting my comments in this way. Yes I have personal feelings about this site and you in general, but I have not expressed them here or anywhere else (and I am not about to discuss them with anyone either).<br />

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I have personal feelings about the review as well, but I did not express them here either (only on the Phasure site in passing, which has nothing to do with my comments here). <br />

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Here, I only made observations about the review process and the conclusions you drew. These points are still valid no matter what your opinion is about me or my motivation (I am not going to comment about this either).<br />

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The fact is, quite a few people have come up against the question of whether to upgrade their dac or improve its connections by getting a SPDIF converter like the BA USB. There are DAC manufacturers who think this is not the optimum approach if you don't want to keep the DAC (and I think Peter is one of them - which is why I wanted his views so I could understand why). Your review, suggests you prefer BA's DAC+ USB approach. But it does not provide any rationale behind it and I was really just pointing that out. <br />

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At the end of the day the question still remains over whether USB-SPDIF-I2S is better (implementation issues aside). Perhaps for the BA USB+DAC it is, because the USB/SPDIF conversion can be isolated more easily than USB - I2S. Perhaps its DAC clock deals better with SPDIF jitter than USB jitter. Either way I think it would have been better to explain this in the review (especially if you have discussed with BA engineers which I have not) as opposed to just reiterating that it is better than the other alternatives you had at the time and that therefore it must be the best solution. The BA guys might be very well meaning, but I am still skeptical over whether or not they would have come up with this solution if they could reinvent their whole DAC all over again. If you disagree, then it would be great if you could tell us why.<br />

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And sorry for hurting your feelings. I thought this forum was set up to allow us to express our thoughts. Let me know if that is incorrect and I'll express them elsewhere which does.<br />

[Mike Gillespie]

Thanks Julf for the help

[dummy]

Hats off to you for your patience and incredibly tactful, zen and open first response to easternlethal. You're a much better man than I!<br />

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@ easternlethal<br />

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I just love the way you're NOT using your own "personal feelings" all over the place and have the balls to say so with a straight face. That reminds me of the good ol' days of Clinton telling the world with his pointy finger in the air that he DIDN'T had any relationship with Miss Lewinsky. With a straight face also. Priceless!<br />

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And yeah, I am mocking you here. Cuz you deserve It. <br />

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Google "ranting". You might learn something.<br />

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[PeterSt]

I sure hope we can all have our share of being honest. And, personally I did not see any disruptive comment from e.l. on my forum - then better address me for that.<br />

But then of course, all messages are clear, and they just are so. And you know what ? This isn't anything about any review within itself - just that it could be more helpful to people. Like my own comment about the Alpha (and you), which is *is* my comment, and if you read through it, the comment is only about all could be more helpful. That this takes my own viewpoint about the device concerned, well, so be it.<br />

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Let me add, please, that I didn't visit CA until 20 minutes back. I am sure you can check this. I mean, I had no clue what was going on here.<br />

At least I have the sincere hope that I am as objective as can be, and that I would exactly *never* express anything about any other product quantitively. I must emphasize : not even on my own forum. It is not my style. Only when I'm challenged for it, like happened today.<br />

That this encouraged me to say the very same (about boxes and stuff) as others seem to think, is just a truth as how it can live in a person. So, I didn't read this thread before my posting concerned, nor did Chris obviously read my posting - which wasn't there yet.<br />

It lives like this, and without good explanation it will live on.<br />

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Kind regards,<br />

Peter<br />

(and apologies when my English doesn't come across as intended)

[agentsmith]

Chris, since you are familiar with the dCS Debussy and at one time hinted you were going to say a few words on it a comparison between the Debussy USB in direct and through the Berkeley USB box would be very useful.<br />

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And not to worry about your opinions being taken as the last words, the British press are not shy in comparing similar products directly. Even the commercial HiFi World is bold enough to do blind comparisons between similar products every issue. We all know these are opinions and will audition before making any purchasing decisions anyway.

[Jud]

<i>All things being equal, I prefer to use cables that CA readers can purchase instead of vaporware.</i><br />

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Not inexpensive(!), but returnable as long as you don't get a custom piece: Omega Mikro makes some very different-looking AES interconnects. If you decide to try out something from them, tell them where you want to use the interconnect - it may affect what they recommend.

[Jud]

<i>Like my own comment about the Alpha</i><br />

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I noticed in the comment on your site that you mentioned various components in your hardware were switched off when not in use. I noticed in Chris' review that he said the same about the Alpha USB.<br />

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This goes along with a view of mine that extreme care in implementation has a great deal to do with ultimate sound quality, along with design theory. Thus I wouldn't get terribly hung up on the fact that designers of the Alpha USB have made decisions somewhat against the present flow, just as I wouldn't get hung up on the changes between your original hardware and your present design. (Of course it's easy for me not to get hung up on any of this, since - to my regret - neither your DAC nor the Berkeley setup is within my audio budget at the moment.) Your present design took some tweaking - some particular care in implementation - before it provided its best sound quality.

[firedog]

Bill, who wrote the comparison between his Offramp4 and the Berkeley, is also a contributor here. Maybe he will chime in.<br />

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http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/showthread.php/41477-Bryston-Berkeley-Alpha-And-Off-Ramp?highlight=ramp+berkeley<br />

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He's got a lot of experience comparing DACs and converters in his setup.<br />

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BTW, Empirical is now selling the OR5, which is supposedly slightly better than the OR4.

[rangert]

Another great review, thanks Chris. <br />

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Question - would you use the Berkeley running into a Weiss DAC2 (my DAC currently using FW from a MacPro) rather than using Firewire? <br />

[easternlethal]

I have a weiss dac2 and was thinking the same thing. From my experience the firewire driver of this device leaves quite a bit to be desired and one would need to decide whether to upgrade the connection or just sell the dac and use that money (plus the money you were going to spend on the BA USB) to upgrade to a better<br />

Dac. This is why it's important to understand the merits of the different data path options available (usb-spdif-i2s, soundcard-aes-i2s, usb-i2s or firewire-i2s) as well as other reasons that may have nothing to do with spdif such as cleaner power or better mechanical isolation.<br />

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So a more helpful test might involve comparing first with a pure spdif converter like the hiface or offramp (no batteries) to see whether there is an improvement, then if so, comparing that result against solutions that offer isolation as well as spdif such as the BA USB and sonicweld diverter and then finally against an isolation solution that does not offer spdif but does offer isolation like the vertex hirez (using the original firewire). This type of comparison should help you decide on technology as opposed to just what 'brand' is better. And if you do it for spdif + power solutions then you'll be able to rank your preferred solutions and assess audiophile components that way instead of just taking cues from the subjective opinions of other people. Who knows... After all that you might even find out it's the weiss's burr-brown dac chip you don't like and end up upgrading the dac.

[accwai]

<cite>[...] This is why it's important to understand the merits of the different data path options available (usb-spdif-i2s, soundcard-aes-i2s, usb-i2s or firewire-i2s) as well as other reasons that may have nothing to do with spdif such as cleaner power or better mechanical isolation. [...] This type of comparison should help you decide on technology as opposed to just what 'brand' is better.</cite><br />

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So why are you so sure that this type of comparison can be done and the type of categorical conclusions that you are looking for can be made in a fair and meaningful way?<br />

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I've learned over the years that components should be judged in the context of specific systems, and system configurations should be judged case by case. Collecting a bunch of well regarded components into a system and you might have too much of a good thing. Some unlikely combinations might work really well although it's going against conventional wisdom. Etc...<br />

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The key here is synergy across the whole system, and to arrive at a system with good synergy requires a lot of leg work. Asking around on the net is unlikely to be a substitute for that leg work...<br />

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Andy

[thotdoc]

Chris-<br />

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I compliment you on how you handle people who confuse their thoughts and opinions with "the truth".<br />

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Gordon

[pawel8]

Here is Peter's quote from Phasure forum-sale pitch?criticizing Alpha:<br />

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This latter by itself is a bit nonsense, but let's say this is about money, and that the $1895 or whatever works better than a new Alpha which is $1895 higher priced. Furthermore, "of course" everybody wants to have asynch USB these days, so Berkely may expect to sell quite a few of those converters.<br />

What about a rip off ?<br />

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Maybe I'm not talking blahbah all the way, if you only know that the original NOS1 was not supplied with (asynch) USB, and that people could have it upgraded by the huge amount of 335 euros (say $400). And this included the disassembly of the old stuff, and the assembly of the new. Ok, maybe that's way underpriced because of the work involved, but do notice that it includes the hardware as well, the licenses involved and some more stuff.<br />

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When we are at it anyway ...<br />

The Alpha is the most dull sounding DAC I had in the house, so far. I didn't say "wrong sounding", but just completely dull. Filtered to death. Now, what I would have done - undoubtedly knowing the difference with e.g. a Weiss, was expressing what changed to that with the USB converter in front of it. But no. It is just the best converter - period.

[Paul R]

This is probably a stupid question. <br />

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I do not really grok that the sound was more "palpable." I tend to think "richer" or "fuller", but neither one of those seems to fit exactly. Would you expand on the sound a little more please? <br />

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-Paul<br />

[rangert]

Agree with Andy here. My question specifically was directed to Chris's vast experience and knowledge - so... does he think that bypassing the Weiss DAC2's FW interface and using the Berkeley would be an improvement in HIS system? It's not a money question or issue and I have no interest in comparing it to 10 different interfaces.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Hi rangert - It's very possible the Alpha USB could offer an improvement in such a scenario. Unfortunately I don't have any Weiss components here and haven't had one since I reviewed the DAC202.<br />

[PeterSt]

Well, now that's nice. I can't be sure whether this is a ironic call or something, but if it is, when I wanted to say something right here about it, I would have.<br />

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But I do hope you read carefully through my Dutch, because this isn't critizing at all. "Critiqueing" would be a better description.<br />

The "ripoff" ... maybe. But this is what most think.<br />

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Well, whatever was intended with quoting me, I don't like it much ...<br />

What I like the least is that it now (in here !) looks like I'm advertising my own product.<br />

Gives me a bad taste.<br />

[accwai]

Well, I think asking specific question is always fine. And while we're at it Chris, I'm wondering if it would be difficult to answer my question posted way up at the beginning of the thread. Which is: Given Berkeley's claim of all the layers of isolation, how much of a degradation, if any, would there be if one were to bypass the the SOtM USB card and go with the motherboard USB port in the CAPSv2 -> Alpha USB -> Alpha DAC chain? I mean in your system of course :-) Hopefully this test would not be too time consuming to perform.<br />

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As an Alpha DAC owner, there is a good chance that an Alpha USB would be in my system eventually. My plan is to drive the setup with a fanless server similar to CAPSv2. But I also find having to design the system around the SOtM card architecturally rather limiting. So I need to get a feel for how much of the hit I'm going to take by skipping the card.<br />

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Any insight you could offer would be greatly appreciated.<br />

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Andy

[bhobba]

Myself and others compared it and the Off-Ramp was easily better. I am in a car right now and will post details later.<br />

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Thanks<br />

Bill

[easternlethal]

If only one component in a system at a time is substituted there should be no difficulty in determining the effect that component has on the system no matter how holistic your view is of the total system. There are several technologies deployed within the BA USB and my belief is if you want to understand the overall impact of that unit you should understand the technologies first and foremost by testing against alternative products including only that particular technology (sort of equivalent to scenario analysis). Then having an approximate appreciation of alternative products and the effects of each technology, it's possible to hypothesize on how your system might sound once if those technologies were adopted. Then, with that hypothesized idea, compare against the actual result achieved by the unit. If the sound is different from what you expected then you will know it is not the technologies tested that made the difference, and if such difference is an improvement over the original hypothesis then this residual difference could be implementation or some other technology that was not compared (such as superior quality or construction etc.). Then at least you'll start to approach some ability to quantify the difference instead of just knowing something is different without understanding why. Either way it's a scientific process and something manufacturers themselves do when performing r&d. To get an idea take a look at the program on sean olive's blog, which is used by harman kardan to train listeners to evaluate components.<br />

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But not many here seem to care much about the process and just want recommendations from chris or anyone else - who incidentally would not even be able to tell what effect something will have on anyone's system (only his). <br />

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This observation i am making on the lack of a scientific process (which applies to the way most people and even manufacturers evaluate their systems - including the specific review above) will no doubt be taken as a personal attack and people might even say they are not interested in it or whatever, but so what. It is still a valid point.

[easternlethal]

I tested the BA USB + Dac on lamm ML3s and Magico Q5s and i have to agree - an improvement over the original dac only solution but still sounding too compressed for what it is.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Hi easternlethal - Is that system in your home? Where did you hear it and under what conditions? Great equipment that one isn't incredibly familiar with is very misleading and lead to falty conclusions frequently.

[rangert]

@easternlethal<br />

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Completely agree. My question was specific to a bypass of the Weiss FW interface, replaced by the BA USB. Chris has had my Weiss DAC2/Minerva and most recently the DAC202 in his system so his opinion on this change is informative even though our systems are completely different. From what people are writing I'd give the Empirical 5 a try first. At the end of the day it's what sounds great to "you"... The Weiss for me sounds great in my system, if I can improve a bit then it's worth it if not then I am still happy.

[agentsmith]

Chris,<br />

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Sorry if I seem critical, while your article is useful as a white paper on technology and features, it is impossible to assess how the product sounds as compared to other products especially DACs with built in async computer interfaces.<br />

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Almost all reviewers at least provide a list the equipment under test and used comparison. The commercial press usually avoids direct competition by being vague on their comparisons, some use products that are way more expensive to avoid troubles with their potential competitors.<br />

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I expect no less from your site. Of course we know this product would sound good given its price and lineage. But how do you think it sounds compared to other products we know you have access to? That is what a reference is for. I know this is only relevant to the context of your system sounding in your room at a particular point in time. We understand that and will read it in that particular context. But without a reference point you might as well skip describing how it sounds. We know it should sound good, but how good?<br />

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(I personally have selfish interest since I think you have access to equipment I own. How about a little hint?)

[Paul R]

I think you misjudge many folks here. Chris's recommendations are for me, a very good match. Never having met him or listened to his much higher system, when I listen to the same gear he has reviewed, I find myself having the same kind of reactions and coming to similar conclusions. <br />

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I have no reason to doubt that will hold, regardless of whether he is reviewing a $500 DAC or a $5000 DAC. And there are some areas I disagree with him on, which is to be expected. <br />

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Liking something or not is purely a matter of personal taste. I choose my systems partly on whether I like the things, as well as their performance specifications. I personally think to do otherwise is unreasonable. <br />

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Also, there are times when I simply cannot audition a hunk of gear, for whatever reason. If it is above a certain dollar threshold, I just don't buy it until I <i>can</i> audition it. If it is below that threshold, I probably will ask people for advice. I'll still choose what I like, this time based upon specs, what other people say about it, how it looks and who is selling it. <br />

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That seems eminently reasonable to me. Chris, through his careful reviews, has earned a lot of respect from me. So have other folks. <br />

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I'm not sure what you are so angry about (you sure seem really angry) or what baggage you may be carrying, or what score you want to settle. But can you kinda settle it offline? <br />

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I'm thinking of saving up for a Berkeley DAC and Alpha USB. I'm kind of interested to hear about any negative impressions of it, based on what it sounds like. It's above the price I am comfortable with without auditioning it first. <br />

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-Paul<br />