The Never Ending Equipment Cycle: Speakers

[Brian A]

With a couple of those cute little "coffee table" DW I woofers.

 

Why stop there?

http://www.thebuttkicker.com/home_theater/products/bk_lfe_kit.htm

[Gregor Samsa]

Based on the demo that I heard, the mini-maggies, though small, could fill a reasonably sized room, especially if you spring for a second woofer. The system was an ipod, a Wadia dock, and a Peachtree Nova. When I asked if the Nova was really driving the maggies, they admitted that they had put an Ayre power amp in the chain. Maggies do present a pretty benign load, but they sound their best if there's a bit of horsepower behind them.

 

I used to have the Monsoons that Barry talks about. I gave them to a friend in need. They sounded pretty good for what they cost, especially the panels. The mini-maggies are in an entirely different league though.

[Gregor Samsa]

Why stop there?

http://www.thebuttkicker.com/home_theater/products/bk_lfe_kit.htm

 

I'm not sure of the utility as an audiovisual component, but it may have a future as a marital aid.

[Paul R]

Paul if I were you, I would be heartbroken to see the Maggies go, especially after spending so much time picking electronics to drive them so well. Perhaps you need to plead your case some more.

 

LOL! I was a bit disconcerted about it. But they are just speakers and this is just a hobby. Karen is not only my best friend, but also who I listen with the most. Very un-audiophile of me, but I prefer two chairs to one.

 

I have been considering a career change lately though, but not sure what an old fart like me can do in the industry.

 

Paul

[crisnee]

Paul, are you (or Karen) against using a subwoofer or two? If you're not even something like the NHT new SuperZeros might do very nicely. I have the old ones and years ago I ran them with subs and they did a very nice job in a pretty large room with cathedral ceiling.

 

Someone also mentioned Triangles. I had an older pair of Triangles (with subs) which sounded surprisingly similar to the MG 12s in many ways. You might take a listen to some of their newer models, not the colors or whatever they're called though.

 

-Chris

[Paul R]

Our own AudioDoc is pretty darn perceptive.

 

It turns out, that Karen thinks a lot of what she did not like about the 1.7s was the size, the color (black), and the massive full sound of them in the living room.

 

She seems quite okay with either spending money on some pretty furniture like stand mounted speakers (currently has her eye on PSB Synchrony 1Bs) or, it turns out on a smaller set of Maggies, like the wall mounted jobs with a sub, or maybe the MMGs. She is a little wary of the MMGs though, because while they are the smallest free standing Maggies around, "small" is a relative term in Maggie speak. As long as the fabric color is the off white though, perhaps...

 

That opens up several more possibilities, though unfortunately, the Mini Maggies are just too darn small for our room. Annoying, but a fact none the less.

 

Anyone listened to the on-wall Maggies before, and/or the new "Tri Center" thing?

 

-Paul

[Kelly]

Paul,

 

I have been following your thread with great interest because I noticed some of our equipment tendencies are quite similar (Odyssey amps, Logitech Touch, and you had mentioned interest in the NAD M51, I want an Odyssey Candela...) Is your hard limit in the $2500 range? I noticed you said you really liked the Gallo CL-2 sound but not enough bass. I am interested to hear what you think of the CL-3. There is a CL-4 for $3500, and Ref 3.5 (which I suspect may hit the sweet spot) can be had on Agon frequently for $3.2 range. Have you heard or considered any of these? (Yes I am a shameless evangelist for Gallo speakers, but am in no way connected to them.) The esthetics of the Ref3.5 are certainly different from other speakers, not boxy at all. Perhaps Karen may like it?

[Paul R]

Paul,

I am interested to hear what you think of the CL-3.

 

Hi Kelly - a set of CL3s and a pair of appropriate subs would hit the mark for us sonically. Without the subs, in a small room, they would also be a hit. We have an odd room though, it is big, open, and has a salt box like ceiling. The tweeters in those speakers do a magnificent job. I can stretch te budGEt a bit in that, but not that much. The Gallo subs are $1200, and a pair of them and the CL3s would be flirting with $5k.

 

Yeah, I had planned to pick up a M51 next month, but that will have to wait now. The Candela is amazingly revealing, but not harsh.

It's a great box to have.

 

Please feel free to comment away. I'm listening to Loggins and Messina right now on the PSB Imagine Bs, and it sounds really good. A little strained when it gets loud, but what else to expect?

 

Paul

[Paul R]

Amazon is blowing out Martin Logan Dynamo 300 subs for the sweet price of $129.99. If you have not heard that little sub, it's definitely an over performer, and that price is a steal. Great for a second system, or for testing what certain speakers will sound like with a little extra bass.

 

Paul

[AudioDoctor]

Our own AudioDoc is pretty darn perceptive.

 

I am?

[Kiwi2]

Please feel free to comment away. I'm listening to Loggins and Messina right now on the PSB Imagine Bs, and it sounds really good. A little strained when it gets loud, but what else to expect?

 

A lot of that shortcoming goes away once you cross them over to a sub at say, 60Hz. Taking 60Hz and below off them really frees them up to go to higher room filling volumes without as much distortion.

 

And when you do get to listen to some Monitor Audio GX50's, I would be interested to hear your impression of them.

[jackfish]

I see a couple of Salk designs were mentioned, but what about Salk Songtowers. They can be had in just about any wood and finish you could want, are 44.5" tall and only 8" inches wide so they wouldn't be any different than bookshelves on stands, start at $2000/pair, and they sound wonderful. Not quite a Maggie sound but they have very good detail/resolution.

[mav52]

Salk Songtowers, excellent speakers and Jim Salk will even provide you measurements

 

http://www.salksound.com/songtower%20specifications.htm

[Paul R]

I see a couple of Salk designs were mentioned, but what about Salk Songtowers. They can be had in just about any wood and finish you could want, are 44.5" tall and only 8" inches wide so they wouldn't be any different than bookshelves on stands, start at $2000/pair, and they sound wonderful. Not quite a Maggie sound but they have very good detail/resolution.

 

I have been trying to get a listen to these for quite some time, darn it all. Nobody I know has a set of them around here though.

They do look like real beauties.

 

-Paul

[Paul R]

Okay, I could not resist picking up a pair of those little Martin Logan Dynamo 300's. They look like the perfect subs to learn on, and then put one in the bedroom and one in the upstairs office.

 

But, I want to hook them up down here and play them with the PSB Imagine Bs and the PSB Synchrony 1Bs we are current auditioning.

 

I was thinking of just putting the T747 in circuit and running the subs through them. That gives me some options to play with, as the Candela doesn't have the second set of outputs wired up on it. (At least, I do not think it does, guess I should try 'em to be sure.)

 

Anyway, how is the right way to do this - run speaker level outputs to the subs? Line level outputs to the left input for each sub?

I'm confused...

 

I plan to use this to test some Maggie MMGW or MCMC1 s as soon as I figure out how to mount them temporarily rather than drill holes into the wall.

 

Setup ideas welcome!

 

-Paul

[AudioDoctor]

 

I plan to use this to test some Maggie MMGW or MCMC1 s as soon as I figure out how to mount them temporarily rather than drill holes into the wall.

 

Setup ideas welcome!

 

-Paul

 

Paul, from the Magnepan website:

 

"When ordering your MMG Ws, ask about our Temporary Throw-Away Speaker Stand. This speaker stand allows you to easily move the MMG Ws about the room to determine the best location before making your permanent installation."

[Paul R]

Paul, from the Magnepan website:

 

"When ordering your MMG Ws, ask about our Temporary Throw-Away Speaker Stand. This speaker stand allows you to easily move the MMG Ws about the room to determine the best location before making your permanent installation."

 

I missed that one, thanks. I was just so pleased Karen would look at them. These little Synchrony 1Bs sound really good on first impression. Much much better than I expected. Almost like a Maggie.

 

-Paul

[AudioDoctor]

you're welcome Paul. I have been considering getting some Maggies lately, so I have read the website quite a lot.

[crisnee]

Okay, I could not resist picking up a pair of those little Martin Logan Dynamo 300's. They look like the perfect subs to learn on, and then put one in the bedroom and one in the upstairs office.

 

But, I want to hook them up down here and play them with the PSB Imagine Bs and the PSB Synchrony 1Bs we are current auditioning.

 

I was thinking of just putting the T747 in circuit and running the subs through them. That gives me some options to play with, as the Candela doesn't have the second set of outputs wired up on it. (At least, I do not think it does, guess I should try 'em to be sure.)

-Paul

 

Paul, there are all kinds of ways to hook up the subs; a lot depends on your amp/receiver. Does it have a sub out (or better yet two)? If not, your going to lose a lot of the sub advantages, or you'll need to install a crossover of some sort.

 

Two sub outs because even bass comes in stereo. Without sub outs you lose the advantage of keeping the bass from your monitors, in other words you'll be sending the full signal to them unless you add a crossover.

 

If you have no sub outs and just want to experiment: Hook up the speaker inputs and try them. Experiment with placement and dialing in the cutoff frequency and volume of the subs. You can also split the preamp out signal and send one part to the sub and one to the amp. The reason you find two inputs on the sub isn't so much right/left as doubling up the output from the amp so you get a stronger signal. Many subs assume you'll be feeding them a mono feed from the receiver as many receivers only have one sub out.

 

I'm just trying to give you a general picture since I don't know what you're amp/receiver (whatever it is) is like. I hope this helps a little at least.

 

-Chris

[4est]

I would hook the subs to the high level (speaker) inputs and run the monitors full range. You will not reap the benefits of relieving the monitors of bass, but it will allow for easier crossover integration. Besides, my guess is that you will loose more inserting a sub par piece with DSP than you stand to gain eliminating the lows from the monitors. Lastly, there are those who think that using the outputs of the amp for the input of the sub offers a "truer" feed as a case has been made for using identical amps on the highs and lows. At least in this, you will be feeding the amp "signature" to the sub. Later if you care to, you can put a capacitor in a Y connection at the input of the amp and get a "nearly" free crossover w/o all of the extra BS.

[babybear]

Hi Paul,

 

I would agree with 4est as to how to hook up your Martin Logan subs by using the speaker level inputs on the subs taking the feed from the amplifier outputs. Then follow the instructions in the martin logan manual as to how to dial in the subs to get as seamless integration with whatever main speakers you are using (and running those main speakers full range). The goal is to extend the bottom end of whatever your main speakers are capable of without having overpowering one note type of bass which would obscure subtle details in the music. BTW, in my opinion, just about any audio system can benefit from the use of high quality subs assuming that they are properly setup and integrated with the listening room and main speakers. They provide benefits beyond just extending bass response. I use 2 of the REL Studio III subs in my system that you heard.

[Paul R]

Heard a set of these these last week, and they sound really clean and clear. The treble on them soars indeed. Our local dealer has not responded to email about them, so no luck in setting up an audition for them at home yet. The environment I heard them in was poorly setup and used less than optimal electronics, and they still were able to show their potentional.

 

They did have a little bit of what sounded like crossover issues, it was not difficult to hear the crossover between the conventional driver and that soaring ribbon tweeter. That could easily have had something to do with the electronics they were attached to though.

 

Thanks for the tip on them.

 

Paul

[Paul R]

Hi Forrest and Arnie and Chris -

 

That's for the tips. If I could get the system here to sound one tenth as nice as your system Arnie, I would be in hog heaven indeed.

 

These are nothing more than "practice" subs to see if I can correctly configure a sub here to do a little bit of what your RELs do Arnie. Then replace them with RELs or something like that. They did not work very well connected to the second set of preamp outputs- not anywhere near enough volume. I plan to hit home depot tomorrow and pickup some cheap zip cord to hook them up to speaker outputs as a test.

 

By the way, finally touched based with Brian today, he is talking about the little Harbeth monitors. Definitely want to get a listen to those.

 

Paul

[Kiwi2]

They did have a little bit of what sounded like crossover issues, it was not difficult to hear the crossover between the conventional driver and that soaring ribbon tweeter.

 

Similar to how I feel about them too I suppose. Good top end and a reasonable bottom end for a small 5.5" 2-way... but midrange a bit lacking.

 

 

 

But, I want to hook them up down here and play them with the PSB Imagine Bs and the PSB Synchrony 1Bs we are current auditioning.

 

How do you find the Synchrony 1Bs compare to the Imagine Bs? Similar sound but better..? Or quite a different sound..?

 

I had considered Synchrony 1 or 2Bs but never got a chance to listen to any, apart from Synchrony 2 towers.

[Paul R]

How do you find the Synchrony 1Bs compare to the Imagine Bs? Similar sound but better..? Or quite a different sound..?

 

I had considered Synchrony 1 or 2Bs but never got a chance to listen to any, apart from Synchrony 2 towers.

 

Roughly, the 1Bs are to the Imagine Bs as a Chevy Trailblazer is to a Cadillac Escalade. In other words, immensely more refined and smoother. And that's saying something because the Imagine Bs are very good indeed.

 

In quick but limited detail -the Imagine Bs are a bit faster in the treble but cannot play as loud without straining.

 

The 1Bs, despite their published rating, have significant output down to about 30 hz, and audible output into the high 20s. They have the bass authority to hold their own. The crossover between the bass/midrange is smooth and clean, I could identify it only when running frequency sweeps. In normal music playback it sounded seamless to me.

 

This is significantly lower than what the Imagine Bs can do. They have solid usable output (again in conflict with their published specs) down into the the lower/mid 40s, and audible output down to 38 hz or so.

 

In the treble department, the 1Bs are far more reserved than the Imagine Bs, which are if anything a bit forward. The 1Bs have the woofer on top configuration, which I suspect makes a lot of the difference here. They have plenty of treble, but I think they need a forward DAC to bring out their best.

 

My gold standard is how violins and cellos sound. With both speakers, these instruments are quite enjoyable to listen to. No screeching, but the hard edges are there when they should be.

 

In terms of imaging, there is no contest. The Syncrhony 1Bs are an order of magnitude better at imaging than the Imagine Bs, which all by themselves are no slouches in this department. The 1Bs however, totally disappear into the soundstage, and place orchestral instruments just where they need to be. Vocals are clear with each word being easily understood. At least in music where you are supposed to understand what they are saying. The 1Bs are much more forgiving to female vocalists than the Imagine Bs are. Which one paints the more accurate picture of the vocalist, well - how would I know? I wasn't there when it was recorded. I would however, bet you a beer that the 1Bs are the winners of that contest, at least between the 1Bs and the Imagine Bs.

 

After growing accustomed to Maggie size sound stages, the 1Bs make cellos sound to me like they are only a few inches tall, but they sound like very good four inch tall cellos. They are 3" tall cellos on the Imagine Bs and it is more difficult to discern the actual instrument than on the 1Bs.

 

To me, imaging, bass, and the absence of most distortion is clearly the strength of the 1Bs. Speed, detail, and a more forward presentation are the strengths of the Imagine Bs.

 

The 1Bs throw a much more precise and defined soundstage, vaguely reminiscent of the way the Maggies open up and disappear.

When used with video, they generate a great phantom center channel. The Imagine Bs try hard, but often vocals tend to wander around the soundstage a but, instead of staying locked to were they belong on the screen.

 

That's it - hope that helps a bit. My notes are full of notes that tell me both speakers really show up the differences in different recordings very well.

 

-Paul