rom661 Posted February 12, 2012 Author Share Posted February 12, 2012 Dummy-(I really hate typing that; how about Mr. Dummy?) We don't have the new piece in yet. I would love to, but unfortunately these pesky manufacturers want you to pay for these things. I don't know if there is anything comparable on it. I'm hesitant to ask, largely due to an early post implying that my discussing this is related to ARC; I don't want to cause them problems. Priaptor-I'm embarrassed to say that I have very little hands on with PC based playback systems. In the early days Mac seemed like the way to go. With the new J.Rivers/Remote interface I need to get with it, both for checking it out myself and so that I can give better recommendations to our customers. I feel like I'm more than a step or two behind many of you on the computer side but Chris assures me that I'm not that bad, "for a high end dealer". It's kind of funny that, at the same time that my digital is the best and most fun I've ever had, I am also really heavily into vinyl these days. The best of vinyl is so "right". I do get a kick out of the digiphobes who seem to believe that any vinyl/analog recording is vastly superior to digital. I've been doing this for 40 years and there was never any shortage of badly recorded or poorly pressed LP's. As I type this I'm listening to Union Station's live recording. I have it on vinyl and CD. It's wonderful music either way. Audio Research DAC8, Mac mini w/8g ram, SSD, Amarra full version, Audio Research REF 5SE Preamp, Sutherland Phd, Ayre V-5, Vandersteen 5A\'s, Audioquest Wild and Redwood cabling, VPI Classic 3 w/Dynavector XX2MkII Link to comment
dummy Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Just so you know, Mr.Dummy is my father...! ;-) You can call me Simon If you prefer... Arcam rDAC / Oppo BDP-83 / NAD 315BEE / Totem Arro Link to comment
Rob McCance Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Very off topic but I'll take a shot while a ARC dealer is here. Any comments on the differences between the SP16 and SP17? I'm considering both with the SP16 being used and costing quite a bit less, of course. Thanks! Regards,[br]Rob McCance[br]Audiophile, Engineer for Cadence Design Systems, and Founder of Atlanta Real Estate Info[br]Mac Mini w/ Pure Music+iTunes>>Audiophilleo2>>Metrum Octave>>Passive Attenuator>>GFA555II>>JBL6332 Link to comment
rom661 Posted February 12, 2012 Author Share Posted February 12, 2012 The LS17 is just better, period. The transition from the 16 to 17 made the piece truly sound like a little brother to the LS26, now LS27. I always felt like the LS17 was one of the better values. The difference between and LS17 and LS 26 was an incremental one, as opposed to the large jump to the REF5. Of course the REF5 was a big jump dollar wise as well. I don't deal much in the used market. The LS17SE has been announced and is billed as making the same type of improvements as there was between the LS26 and 27. The price has remained the same, which is refreshing. The original LS17 can be updated so a used one might be a good investment with an upgrade down the road. Obviously as a dealer I like selling new products but I recognize the realities. Whatever you decide to do, good luck with it. Rick As a side note, regarding the used thing, I'm hearing a lot of horror stories about Audiogon recently. Apparently one of the principals is gone, the website has been dramatically changed and communications between buyers and sellers has been greatly impaired. I jumped onto a couple of blogs and a lot of people seem really upset. Most importantly, apparently there are some nasty viruses lurking there now. I have no first hand experience with the problems, other than some things not working and am not taking shots at Audiogon. I had dinner with the president last year and told him that I hate his company; except when we need it. He laughed. Things sound pretty grim. Please be careful, everyone. Audio Research DAC8, Mac mini w/8g ram, SSD, Amarra full version, Audio Research REF 5SE Preamp, Sutherland Phd, Ayre V-5, Vandersteen 5A\'s, Audioquest Wild and Redwood cabling, VPI Classic 3 w/Dynavector XX2MkII Link to comment
Rob McCance Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Rick, Thanks. I didn't want to taint your answer by telling you what Chris at ARC told me on the phone prior to letting you answer. But I'll tell you now. He told me the SP17 is a lot better than the SP16 in every regard; sound stage, detail, space around each instrument, etc., etc. He also said the SP17 had a lot more "punch" and was much more dimensional. Said the SP16 sounded flat in comparison to the SP17. So, I would say you are in perfect step with the factory! BTW, I've got two kids to get through college in the next 5 years so no need to talk to me about any of the ARC Reference Series. Thanks again for your comments, very much! Rob Regards,[br]Rob McCance[br]Audiophile, Engineer for Cadence Design Systems, and Founder of Atlanta Real Estate Info[br]Mac Mini w/ Pure Music+iTunes>>Audiophilleo2>>Metrum Octave>>Passive Attenuator>>GFA555II>>JBL6332 Link to comment
Downrange Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Yep, not too surprised by your findings. Ferrite is great for eliminating RF interference (RFI) - not sure what AR had in mind, but your findings match those of several other people I've discussed ferrite with. It should really be a last resort in an audio circuit for reducing RFI. As to Audiogon, I'm sorry I ever wasted time trying them - they've really jumped the shark with this latest implementation. And I got virus warnings from AVG there too... I have thousands of LPs, hundreds of CDs, and dozens of 24 bit downloads. I mostly listen to the downloads... Link to comment
rom661 Posted February 12, 2012 Author Share Posted February 12, 2012 I'd have been nervous if I'd known it was a test... Actually the one thing I would add, and it's perhaps the most important thing, is that, trite as it might sound, the LS17 just does music better. All of those attributes Chris mentioned are true. And perhaps they are what make up the character I'm talking about, but to me the LS17 just let's the music through better. Ultimately that's what it's about, at least for me. I'm going to go out on a limb here and agree that your kids are more important than a REF series preamp. Although I had a REF Anniversary for a year. I'd have to think about that one...Kidding. Both professionally and personally, I wish there were more people in the general population like the ones I meet on this site. Mostly. Rick Audio Research DAC8, Mac mini w/8g ram, SSD, Amarra full version, Audio Research REF 5SE Preamp, Sutherland Phd, Ayre V-5, Vandersteen 5A\'s, Audioquest Wild and Redwood cabling, VPI Classic 3 w/Dynavector XX2MkII Link to comment
jjavan Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 i Justin Javan[br]System:Mac Mini with 8 GB of RAM, Amarra music player,Patriot Inferno SSD 240 GB>S.R.Tricon USB Cable>S.R.Music Cable>Messenger MkIII Preamp with Phono Stage and Shunyata Python Alpha Power Cord>Tara Labs The 0.5 Interconnects with HFX floating ground station>2 VTL MB-450 monoblock tube amps set in Triode Mode with 2 6\' Tesla Precision Power Cords>Tara Labs Omega Speaker Cables>Pair of Dynaudio Temptation Loudspeakers.[br]Power Cleaner: S.R. Powercell MkII SE with Tesla Power Cord and Wal Wart, QLS 9 with T2 Power Cord.[br]Analog Equipment Left Out Due to Nature of Site.[br] Link to comment
rom661 Posted February 12, 2012 Author Share Posted February 12, 2012 Umm, I responded to a comment that is no longer there. To quote a recent presidential candidate "Whoops". Audio Research DAC8, Mac mini w/8g ram, SSD, Amarra full version, Audio Research REF 5SE Preamp, Sutherland Phd, Ayre V-5, Vandersteen 5A\'s, Audioquest Wild and Redwood cabling, VPI Classic 3 w/Dynavector XX2MkII Link to comment
jjavan Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Hi Rick, I replied to your original post, but upon scanning through the rest of the comments it appeared Joust had explained himself/herself, and so I felt there was no need to keep my comment up. However, you can't delete a comment on this site as far as I can tell, so I just left a couple of letters up. I agree with what you had to say about people in general, but on the internet I've found it's a whole different ball of wax. People can be downright vicious. Again, I really did find what you had to say interesting. While I don't own any Audio Research gear you never know when I may come across something similar. Thanks Again, JJ Justin Javan[br]System:Mac Mini with 8 GB of RAM, Amarra music player,Patriot Inferno SSD 240 GB>S.R.Tricon USB Cable>S.R.Music Cable>Messenger MkIII Preamp with Phono Stage and Shunyata Python Alpha Power Cord>Tara Labs The 0.5 Interconnects with HFX floating ground station>2 VTL MB-450 monoblock tube amps set in Triode Mode with 2 6\' Tesla Precision Power Cords>Tara Labs Omega Speaker Cables>Pair of Dynaudio Temptation Loudspeakers.[br]Power Cleaner: S.R. Powercell MkII SE with Tesla Power Cord and Wal Wart, QLS 9 with T2 Power Cord.[br]Analog Equipment Left Out Due to Nature of Site.[br] Link to comment
Adyc Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Removing the ferrite rings, the sound definitely sounds better through XLR input. It is more spacious and smooth. Thanks for the trick. Link to comment
andrewd01 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 I have just tried it on mine, listening through BNC and RCA inputs. I agree that there is a definite change in the sound. As described above, the sound "opens up" and seems more transparent. The midrange and vocals in particular become more prominent, and the soundstage and imaging is improved. To my ears the bass is a bit less prominent. It is still there, but the midrange is more dominant in the tonal balance. I am curious to know if the design decision to include the ferrites was indeed to reduce interference and meet regulatory requirements, or alternatively a design decision to "tune" the sound to ARC house sound. I think I like the new sound but will need to listen for a week or so to decide for sure. My system: source 1: item Audio Mac Mini 2011 with Audirvana plus>Kimber Ag USB>Offramp4 (all latest options) BNC input>Kimber Select 2020 BNC-BNC>DAC8 BNC input>Kimber Select 1030 RCA>CJ ACT2 (series1)>Kimber Select 1036>CJ Prem 140>Kimber Select 3035>Dynaudio Contour S3.4 source 2: Cullen modified Sonos(96kHz)>Kimber Select 2020 RCA-RCA>DAC8 RCA input Link to comment
Miska Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 kiss of death for audio circuits Maybe if you like the sound of extra interference and jitter patterns in the analog output... Nothing wrong with that, but I would propose to first check by measurement if the performance was actually degraded as result of removing the ferrites, instead of "improving". There are so many "improvement" tweaks around that actually make the electronics perform worse, but of course it will add some extra spicing on the output signal. Most likely the performance is not anymore according to the manufacturers original design and specs. Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
rom661 Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 Your suggestions that this is a degradation are incorrect. That is not to say that everyone will prefer it, but the signal is not being degraded by the removal of the ferrite. Anyone who has concerns about this, I would just ask you to trust me in that regard. As far as preference, trust yourself. Rick Audio Research DAC8, Mac mini w/8g ram, SSD, Amarra full version, Audio Research REF 5SE Preamp, Sutherland Phd, Ayre V-5, Vandersteen 5A\'s, Audioquest Wild and Redwood cabling, VPI Classic 3 w/Dynavector XX2MkII Link to comment
Arcguy Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Yes, I am a new member. I just started using a Mac Book Pro as a music server a couple of weeks ago. This is all new stuff to me. I also recently bought ARC dac8, REF 5SE and REF 250 amps so I am also new to tubes. Ferrite cores are generally used as a last sort to reduce EMI. Proper circuit design, layout and chassis design is the proper way to reduce EMI. It's a very difficult problem and the DAC 8 has to meet the tougher FCC Class B for residential use. Link to comment
rom661 Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 For a new tube user, you started with a bang. You're one up on me; I haven't had my hands on the REF5SE yet. Audio Research DAC8, Mac mini w/8g ram, SSD, Amarra full version, Audio Research REF 5SE Preamp, Sutherland Phd, Ayre V-5, Vandersteen 5A\'s, Audioquest Wild and Redwood cabling, VPI Classic 3 w/Dynavector XX2MkII Link to comment
Mark Powell Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 You didn't know these ferrite rings were going to be a lifetime's career when you made the original post, did you? Link to comment
rom661 Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 No, I thought it was going to be more of a "Hey, try this, see what you think". On the other hand, I'm still trying to decide what I want to be when I grow up.... Thanks for making me smile. Rick Audio Research DAC8, Mac mini w/8g ram, SSD, Amarra full version, Audio Research REF 5SE Preamp, Sutherland Phd, Ayre V-5, Vandersteen 5A\'s, Audioquest Wild and Redwood cabling, VPI Classic 3 w/Dynavector XX2MkII Link to comment
Priaptor Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I have the same equipment. I am waiting to upgrade the REF 5 to the SE. My "appointment" is first week in March. Having played around with the DAC8 for quite a long time now, I would try the CAPS 2.0 and JRiver with it. IMHO, it mates best with the DAC8 and was one of the more startling improvements I was able to get out of a system like yours. Enjoy. Link to comment
Miska Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Ferrite cores are generally used as a last sort to reduce EMI. Proper circuit design, layout and chassis design is the proper way to reduce EMI. It's a very difficult problem and the DAC 8 has to meet the tougher FCC Class B for residential use. I don't know much about FCC, but at least CE has two sets of requirements. Emissions by the device itself and tolerance for emissions from other devices. It is required that a device operates correctly within it's specifications when subjected to certain amount of EMI/RFI. Sensitive devices like DACs require shielding to reach top class performance under such conditions. Ferrites are one way to keep EMI/RFI collected by cables from entering the circuitry and affecting the performance. (Ferrite-cored coils are very usual in electronics, from VCC line chokes to loudspeaker crossovers.) Both FCC and CE set minimum requirement baseline for both of these and good devices should exceed those requirements by fair margin. By removing ferrites there is either risk of A) device disturbing other devices or B) device being disturbed by other devices. Usually audio manufacturers don't put components in that both cost money and make the performance worse, so I would say it is fairly reasonable to assume that (A) and (B) don't improve by removing components placed there by the manufacturer... Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
rom661 Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 I'm sure you're quite knowledgable. It is not an issue in this particular case. You've made your point. I've made mine. Anyone who is interested in trying it, feel free. If you're concerned, don't. If you don't like it, go back. In the extremely unlikely event that it causes an issue (it won't), go back to the rings. Miska, I am very careful about my posts here. When something I discuss is subjective as opposed to an indisputable fact, I say so. When my being a dealer is something that a reader should be aware of as my comments are evaluated, I say so. When I don't know something, a frequent occurrence, I say so. Audio Research DAC8, Mac mini w/8g ram, SSD, Amarra full version, Audio Research REF 5SE Preamp, Sutherland Phd, Ayre V-5, Vandersteen 5A\'s, Audioquest Wild and Redwood cabling, VPI Classic 3 w/Dynavector XX2MkII Link to comment
AudioExplorations Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Rom, he is just stating some logical facts, don't take comments on here so personally. I think it's smart to realise that there could be negative consequences with modifying the design, saying "it won't" is wrong. Link to comment
rom661 Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 That may be the case. It certainly was with your first post on the thread. If so, I am sorry. I am a little frustrated because I wouldn't have posted anything about it if I wasn't certain that it would not cause issues. I didn't do it casually and without a high level of certainty that it wouldn't cause issues. Fair enough? Audio Research DAC8, Mac mini w/8g ram, SSD, Amarra full version, Audio Research REF 5SE Preamp, Sutherland Phd, Ayre V-5, Vandersteen 5A\'s, Audioquest Wild and Redwood cabling, VPI Classic 3 w/Dynavector XX2MkII Link to comment
Arcguy Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I am still fairly new to the music server setup. What is the best setup in terms of sampling rates for the DAC 8 and Pure Music for optimal sound quality. My CDs are ripped at 44.1 kHz and I am using a Mac Book Pro. Is there a recommended setting for the DAC 8 and Pure Music? Thanks for the suggestions. Link to comment
Priaptor Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 but I have the same electronics you do and have used just about all the Mac players out there and nothing compares to Chris's CAPS 2 with JRiver when it comes to the DAC8. I have had the DAC 8 for a year now so I have a lot of experience with it. My recommendation, is load Bootcamp and WIN7 and give JRiver a try and see for yourself. After you are convinced as I was, order yourself the CAPS 2.0. You will be very very happy. Link to comment
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