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  • MHWilliford
    MHWilliford

    Moving To The B&W 802 D4

    At few days more than a month into my Bowers & Wilkins 802D4 speakers taking the place of their 804D2 predecessors, the initial unboxing and connection euphoria has subsided and I’ve both consumed enough music purposely and walked-in on enough tracks served randomly by Roon to evaluate these speaker’s sound signature – and more specifically, to comment on how they compare to their 804D2 predecessors in case other readers might be considering an upgrade both in 800-series size and generation.

     

    To quickly summarize, if you can afford the upgrade, there is an immediate palpable difference delivered by the 802D4’s.  Without question the bass is more solid and coherent (even though I had long ago augmented the 804D2 predecessors with a 2x7inch PV1D subwoofer, it leaves that combination well-behind), and the midrange is more open and revealing – though this may also come from improved tweeter contributions as well - the fact that I cannot tell which driver is making the magic speaks to the overall coherence, and I suspect it is some of both.

     

    I believe the tech that Bowers & Wilkins has employed to improve this generation of Diamonds is not marketing hype – the increased cabinet stiffness, refined cross-over, improved turbine damping, new midrange driver suspension, and improved tweeter housing design among others - it all works.  Already I’ve experienced many “I’ve never heard that before” moments while listening to the 802 D4s, and I was plenty-happy with the older 804 D2s.  The considerable extra expense, extra mass, and extra imposition on my listening room affected by the Schwarzeneggeran 802D4’s has been worth it to me – I’ve had no buyer’s remorse.  Yes, being recently retired and not of unlimited means, I did have a couple of “I did what?” moments associated with spending half-a-nice-car on a pair of speakers, but never remorse.  Already, many moments of deeper music appreciation have been delivered, and if you are like me - also enjoying movies or binging the latest series with your wife or partner of choice, these experiences too have been elevated.

     

    bw_802d4_one.jpgTo detractors who comprehensively dismiss Bowers & Wilkins speakers as overly-bright, I would first and foremost state the obvious and say that this, like the great majority of choices we make in the “audiophile space” is a matter of taste.  Second, I would be sure to understand their reference point when you consider it.  Are they referencing 800 series or some other Bowers & Wilkins series that does not benefit from the precise and yet refined diamond tweeter? If 800 series, which generation, because each generation also has its own subtly-evolved sound signature. The point is to be careful of un-specified opinions.  What I would objectively report to potential buyers of the 802D4 is that these speakers are truly reference-class, with their larger sibling 801D4 (featuring the exact same turbine head/midrange driver and nautilus tube/diamond tweeter as the 802D4) being employed in some of the top recording studios around the world – thus, they are depended upon to replay the music fed to them as accurately as possible. 

     

    As you would then expect, when properly fed with well-recorded source material through quality amplification, these loudspeakers will bring you closer to an in-studio sound than you have likely experienced before.  Likewise, they will just as faithfully expose poor recordings that are not properly miked, too loud, too compressed, overly brassy or otherwise deficient.  This can be readily demonstrated if you listen to close-miked tracks where peak levels are clearly pushing well into the red, or if already distorted guitar amplification (the good, textured kind) is pushed-up another level to become etched and irritating, to say nothing if you navigate the waters of many 80’s and 90’s recordings (yes – of course there is plenty of quality music from this era, but it seems that recording engineers at the time were mostly sent to the pedal-to-the-metal-school of mastering subtlety).

     

    Audio scholars succinctly characterized the sound of the 802D4’s as monitor-like – and in my listening opinion that is, like the 802D4’s themselves, entirely accurate.  This is not to say that you cannot enjoy a whiskey while you listen to the 802D4’s – of course you can.  Select your source material appropriately, relax and surround yourself with aural goodness if that is what you are feeling.  As an example, Brian Bromberg’s The Saga of Harrison Crabfeathers from the album Wood – (44/16 via Qobuz) will have you sipping that whiskey at the edge of the stage in an intimate jazz club, Brain’s stand-up right in front of you, drums behind, and piano off to the right.  As I drifted into a musical trance enveloped by bass realism, I was honestly tricked for a flashing moment into thinking “this is a night I will never forget”.  No worries, the 802D4’s allow me to recreate it anytime I want.  Isn’t that the repeatable high most of us are striving for in our audio journey?    

     

    bw_802d4_absolute_mobil.jpgLikewise, don’t expect the 802D4’s to make excuses for recordings or sources in your collection or system that are lacking (mine exposed a bad PC audio driver in my first listening days, and I also learned that the 802D4’s do not require the same degree of toe-in as the 804D2’s – the upshot being several instances of significantly-wider sound-staging noted in my listening thus far).  I think accuracy vs. “warmth” or “listenability” is a tradeoff most of us understand.  If you are looking for a speaker to smooth-over everything in your collection and sound “good” no matter what it plays, you should probably consider other options.  If on the other hand you crave an in-home reference experience, and like me are addicted to the visceral reaction that music can trigger when we suddenly hear something evocative or strikingly more realistic from even familiar recordings, then this speaker may well be for you.  The effortless and yet often startlingly-good bass presence alone would be enough for the serious audiophile to justify their purchase.  What I wasn’t expecting was the amazingly open and layer-revealing nature of the midrange and tweeter that goes above and beyond my previous reference, bringing additional life to vocals and revealing new sounds that we all crave in our deep listening sessions.  Placing the 802D4’s into service marks the 5th landmark improvement in sound quality I have experienced in my audio journey of 40+ years.  They are precise, visceral, and highly recommended.

     

     

     

     




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    On 4/5/2022 at 9:43 AM, MHWilliford said:

    I did have an opportunity to listen to a pair of 805D4's the day I went in to order my 802's.  They were extremely impressive.  I still can't believe the bass they were able to produce.  I honestly had to ask my dealer if a sub was in play.  Not to say this would make your RELs irrelevant, but for someone who needed to or wanted to go without a sub in even a medium-sized room, I would say go for it.  That said, the tweeters I believe to be identical, though they may be voiced differently.  I understand you caution around edginess, and of course would not make a purchase of this magnitude without an audition.

    I’m just the opposite.  I listened to the 802D4’s but bought the 805D4’s and an SVS 2000 sub.  I love the 805’s with home theater, but for some reason, I can’t get excited over them for two channel stereo.  Maybe it is my McIntosh electronics that are the cause.  Anyway, I am returning the 805’s and replacing them with Klipsch La Scala AL5’s.  If those don’t do the trick, I may next try the 802 D4’s.  From my demo, in a retailer’s un-enhanced listening room, they were fabulous!  I was trying to save space with the 805’s over the 802’s, with the opportunity to upgrade later, but the La Scala’s are even larger than the 802’s!

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    Talk about going from one extreme to another. La Scala's will not have the bass you think, 50 Hz is the max output, so a sub will still be needed and that will be hard sub to find due to the 105 dB efficiency. Also, 17K Hzis max on top. Just saying Here.

     

    It will be interesting see what you think...

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    Hi, Botrytis.  Thanks for your comment.  I am not expecting low sub-bass on the La Scala's.  I realize that their frequency response cuts out at 51 Hz.  Most of my music listening will not go that low, however, and I am looking forward to the quick response of the bass horn woofer above that.  I will keep the SVS sub-woofer in the system for movies and the occasional lower notes in music.  We'll have to wait and see how well it can keep up with the La Scala's.  The specs call for 20 kHz on top, but if, as you say, they don't go above 17, that will likely not be a problem as I have high frequency healing loss.  But for now, I've never owned horns and want to give the new, improved model a try.  I'm looking forward to trying out the "fun" factor of the La Scala's.  For critical and precise listening, I have another very satisfactory setup that  includes a McIntosh headphone tube amp and Focal Clear MG headphones.  I'll let you know how I like the La Scala's, which are to be installed on Monday.  My dealer has a 30 day return policy, and a good upgrade policy, if they don't work out.  That's one good reason, to me, to use a reputable dealer and pay retail prices.  That is how I am able to turn the B&W 805D4's in and try the La Scala's.  My retailer will also match a lower price if found from a dealer on-line.  Stay tuned!

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    20 hours ago, Therandyman said:

    I’m just the opposite.  I listened to the 802D4’s but bought the 805D4’s and an SVS 2000 sub.  I love the 805’s with home theater, but for some reason, I can’t get excited over them for two channel stereo.  Maybe it is my McIntosh electronics that are the cause.  Anyway, I am returning the 805’s and replacing them with Klipsch La Scala AL5’s.  If those don’t do the trick, I may next try the 802 D4’s.  From my demo, in a retailer’s un-enhanced listening room, they were fabulous!  I was trying to save space with the 805’s over the 802’s, with the opportunity to upgrade later, but the La Scala’s are even larger than the 802’s!

    I certainly understand the desire to have the mini-monitors from a visual impact perspective, but this result is not surprising given my own experience.  My previous speakers, B&W 804D2's were very very sweet.  Excellent highs and midrange, and while the bass was good in many instances, sometimes I found it lacking some punch when I was set-up in larger rooms (much less so in my current 12 x 12 listening room).  To address that, I added a PV1-D, which did help quite a bit, though I found myself constantly fussing with all of the controls - high-pass crossover, polarity, gain, etc.  This sent me to looking at larger speakers, and while the 804's + PV1D woofer area and on-paper performance next to the 802's would seem to be very similar, in practice they are not.  The 802's are substantially better - more cohesive, more realistic, and nothing to fuss with regarding settings.  I suspect the difference is due to the direct integration - i.e. the bass is literally wired into the crossover, and also the cabinet contribution.  The 802's have a much larger "chest cavity" from which to emanate those low notes.  I would strongly urge you to audition them.  As far as the McIntosh factor goes, I run a C2700/MC462 combo and couldn't be more pleased with that tube/solid-state combination.  This is not to say that other brands or McIntosh options could not sound better - I just do not feel any deficiency there (except for the possibility of the C2700's modular DA2 DAC).

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    9 minutes ago, MHWilliford said:

    I certainly understand the desire to have the mini-monitors from a visual impact perspective, but this result is not surprising given my own experience.  My previous speakers, B&W 804D2's were very very sweet.  Excellent highs and midrange, and while the bass was good in many instances, sometimes I found it lacking some punch when I was set-up in larger rooms (much less so in my current 12 x 12 listening room).  To address that, I added a PV1-D, which did help quite a bit, though I found myself constantly fussing with all of the controls - high-pass crossover, polarity, gain, etc.  This sent me to looking at larger speakers, and while the 804's + PV1D woofer area and on-paper performance next to the 802's would seem to be very similar, in practice they are not.  The 802's are substantially better - more cohesive, more realistic, and nothing to fuss with regarding settings.  I suspect the difference is due to the direct integration - i.e. the bass is literally wired into the crossover, and also the cabinet contribution.  The 802's have a much larger "chest cavity" from which to emanate those low notes.  I would strongly urge you to audition them.  As far as the McIntosh factor goes, I run a C2700/MC462 combo and couldn't be more pleased with that tube/solid-state combination.  This is not to say that other brands or McIntosh options could not sound better - I just do not feel any deficiency there (except for the possibility of the C2700's modular DA2 DAC).

    One nice thing about the B&W 800 Series is that their DB subwoofers are designed as a direct extension, so integration is seamless and easy, via their software.  I think just about every other sub/main combo needs professional integration.  You're basically trying to optimize across 3-4 variables without a reference point other than your memory--not easy if you want it "perfect".

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    Congrats mhwilliford and a great write up. I am patiently waiting for my 802D4’s to arrive.  Dealer did call last week to say they are coming early June so that will make it a 7 month wait.

     

    I’ve also have the same Mac gear as you C2700/MC462.  Currently driving my 803D3.  However I have Holo May KTE DAC.  Big difference from the DA2.

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    Thank’s mhw for the very interesting feedback about the new 802d4 . 
     

    I used to have B&W 802N driven by audio research amplifier and I really like a lot these speakers . Because of a move abroad I went 805N then 805D with a PV1D subwoofer and audio research tube amp , again a very nice speaker . 
    After retiring I did moved to Martin Logan Montis driven by a Jadis integrated I 50 . While I liked a lot the very open midrange . The bass never fully convinced me and I was missing the macro dynamic of electrodynamic speaker which is closer to real life music than what ml can do .

     

    I was then hunting for new speakers , I tried Dali epicon 6, Sabrina X and some local French brand . None of these did work very well with my Nagra classic amp .

    I heard about the D4 serie and was able to hear them during a local audio show . There was 803D4 driven by the integrated Dan D’Agostino and it did sound very well . 
    I then was able to do several demo at my local dealer with the Nagra and the 803 and to my surprise it was a very nice combination given the modest 2x100w of the Nagra. 
    Nautilus speakers are quite power hungry . 
    I personally never liked too much the D3 serie as I found it to be too hifi for me , may be bad demo .

     

    Anyhow I have lived now for two month with the 803D4 ( used in a 15x21 feet room ) and I am really really happy on what these speakers do . B&W has done a wonderful job . 
    The bass is excellent , extremely lively and detailed ( yes detailed bass ) , the top is as usual for B&W excellent and the midrange is detailed . I have found the sound of acoustic music instrument to be closer to what I hear in concert than all my previous speakers . Soundstage is excellent . 
    The only area I am lacking a little bit when compared to the ml is transparency in the midrange . 
     

    They have only 150 to 200 hours of operation I can tell you there was quite significant change over the burn in time . Beyond the mechanical burn in these capacitors in the filter may require 300 hours to fully open .

     

    Well done B&W ! 

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    I have heard the 802 D4"s and also a pair of Usher speakers with Diamond tweeters at AXPONA. The Ushers were cheaper and sounded more balanced.

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    Sounding pretty good here:

     

     

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    21 hours ago, Rexp said:

    Sounding pretty good here:

     

     

     

    Nope ... clangy quality to the piano; and towards the end when everything comes in, it becomes fairly typical hifi shouty ...

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    4 hours ago, fas42 said:

     

    Nope ... clangy quality to the piano; and towards the end when everything comes in, it becomes fairly typical hifi shouty ...

    I'm listening to this on my iMac, so there is no way to know the actual quality.  I didn't like what I heard, however.  You can hear some of the Bowers and Wilkins nice midrange and a little of a deep lower end and some good depth, but the highs (again, on little iMac speakers) were tipped up and all the frequencies weren't even.  So, I agree that within the limitations of computer speakers as output, this sounds hifi.  

     

    The voice over mentions that they are using a preamp with "no hours on it."  Why do that to demonstrate revealing speakers that have very low distortion?  One thing I know about the Bowers and Wilkins is that if there is distortion from your gear you will hear it.  The magic happens when you get the distortion of your gear very, very low.  

     

     

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    17 minutes ago, PYP said:

     

    The voice over mentions that they are using a preamp with "no hours on it."  Why do that to demonstrate revealing speakers that have very low distortion?  One thing I know about the Bowers and Wilkins is that if there is distortion from your gear you will hear it.  The magic happens when you get the distortion of your gear very, very low.  

     

     

     

    Yes. The more revealing the system, the more the remaining issues will stand out - when the distortion of the whole path is low enough, then indeed the specialness of the recording is "unveiled".

     

    I have heard too many B&Ws, in person, sounding like in the clip - because the driving chain wasn't sorted enough. Note, I got my first convincing SQ with DM10s; so, I have nothing against the brand itself ...

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    5 hours ago, fas42 said:

     

    Nope ... clangy quality to the piano; and towards the end when everything comes in, it becomes fairly typical hifi shouty ...

    Are you listening on your laptop speakers? Have you disabled the dsp effects?

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    3 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

    What about the microphone used to record? 
     

    You guys kill me when assessing quality of  audio components via YouTube. 

    Probably as bad as assessing analog recordings without having a turntable.

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    .

    3 minutes ago, PYP said:

    Totally agree that videos are not a good way to evaluate components.  Yet one online reviewer has built quite a business doing just that.  I just don't get it.     

     

    The only videos that have been of interest to me are comparative ones.  I'm assuming at least the microphone was the same in the various videos since the same person made them, but that is just an assumption.  Of course, the rooms are different and that may be the source of the difference in sound across systems.  The videos were featuring some very expensive gear.  It was easy to hear differences.  So what?  On the other hand, one video sounded very nice, even over little computer speakers.  But what does one conclude from that?

    Better microphone is all. 

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    2 minutes ago, botrytis said:

    .

    Better microphone is all. 

    Given how much microphones change the sound of the audio being recorded, I don't think it matters :~)

     

    My Neumann I use for podcasting makes me sound different. Plus, that "different" sound is different + or different - depending on a few centimeters right or left or back of the capsule. 

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    9 minutes ago, PYP said:

    Yet one online reviewer has built quite a business doing just that.

     

    I'm totally fine with whatever entertains people, and I'm happy whoever has made it a business, is providing a service people want. I just wouldn't fool myself, or people spending their precious time, with such folly. 

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    2 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

     

    I'm totally fine with whatever entertains people, and I'm happy whoever has made it a business, is providing a service people want. I just wouldn't fool myself, or people spending their precious time, with such folly. 

    Agreed.  And yet it does reinforce some very broad assumptions about gear, price, etc.  That part seems disingenuous to me, or least it isn't helpful in helping folks become better consumers.   

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    5 hours ago, PYP said:

    Totally agree that videos are not a good way to evaluate components.  Yet one online reviewer has built quite a business doing just that.  I just don't get it.     

     

    Darko?  He's not listening via video, he is reporting via video on products within an appropriate system.  This is completely different. (although I wish he would write more and video less)

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    Just now, PeterG said:

     

    Darko?  He's not listening via video, he is reporting via video on products within an appropriate system.  This is completely different. (although I wish he would write more and video less)

    he isn't the one I have in mind.   But as Chris mentioned, some folks are interested in the entertainment value.  

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    16 hours ago, Rexp said:

    Are you listening on your laptop speakers? Have you disabled the dsp effects?

     

    Yes.

     

    Most times it's trivially obvious when listening on a YouTube video whether someone is idly recording some live music making, or when it's a capture of a stereo playing - easy to test: play a video for someone who can't see the screen and ask them, is this the sound of a hifi system going, or 'proper' music? The giveaways are usually so obvious that the person will give you a funny look ...

     

    A measure of a system is that the giveaways are inaudible, or so subtle that you have you really have to concentrate on picking them up - glaringly obvious unrealistic sound means that the rig is well behind in being accurate.

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    3 minutes ago, fas42 said:

     

    Yes.

     

    Most times it's trivially obvious when listening on a YouTube video whether someone is idly recording some live music making, or when it's a capture of a stereo playing - easy to test: play a video for someone who can't see the screen and ask them, is this the sound of a hifi system going, or 'proper' music.? The giveaways are usually so obvious that the person will give you a funny look ...

     

    A measure of a system is that the giveaways are inaudible, or so subtle that you have you really have to concentrate on picking them up - glaringly obvious unrealistic sound means that the rig is well behind in being accurate.

    Just trying to help you, if you've not disabled the dsp, its gonna sound off.

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