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  • MHWilliford
    MHWilliford

    Moving To The B&W 802 D4

    At few days more than a month into my Bowers & Wilkins 802D4 speakers taking the place of their 804D2 predecessors, the initial unboxing and connection euphoria has subsided and I’ve both consumed enough music purposely and walked-in on enough tracks served randomly by Roon to evaluate these speaker’s sound signature – and more specifically, to comment on how they compare to their 804D2 predecessors in case other readers might be considering an upgrade both in 800-series size and generation.

     

    To quickly summarize, if you can afford the upgrade, there is an immediate palpable difference delivered by the 802D4’s.  Without question the bass is more solid and coherent (even though I had long ago augmented the 804D2 predecessors with a 2x7inch PV1D subwoofer, it leaves that combination well-behind), and the midrange is more open and revealing – though this may also come from improved tweeter contributions as well - the fact that I cannot tell which driver is making the magic speaks to the overall coherence, and I suspect it is some of both.

     

    I believe the tech that Bowers & Wilkins has employed to improve this generation of Diamonds is not marketing hype – the increased cabinet stiffness, refined cross-over, improved turbine damping, new midrange driver suspension, and improved tweeter housing design among others - it all works.  Already I’ve experienced many “I’ve never heard that before” moments while listening to the 802 D4s, and I was plenty-happy with the older 804 D2s.  The considerable extra expense, extra mass, and extra imposition on my listening room affected by the Schwarzeneggeran 802D4’s has been worth it to me – I’ve had no buyer’s remorse.  Yes, being recently retired and not of unlimited means, I did have a couple of “I did what?” moments associated with spending half-a-nice-car on a pair of speakers, but never remorse.  Already, many moments of deeper music appreciation have been delivered, and if you are like me - also enjoying movies or binging the latest series with your wife or partner of choice, these experiences too have been elevated.

     

    bw_802d4_one.jpgTo detractors who comprehensively dismiss Bowers & Wilkins speakers as overly-bright, I would first and foremost state the obvious and say that this, like the great majority of choices we make in the “audiophile space” is a matter of taste.  Second, I would be sure to understand their reference point when you consider it.  Are they referencing 800 series or some other Bowers & Wilkins series that does not benefit from the precise and yet refined diamond tweeter? If 800 series, which generation, because each generation also has its own subtly-evolved sound signature. The point is to be careful of un-specified opinions.  What I would objectively report to potential buyers of the 802D4 is that these speakers are truly reference-class, with their larger sibling 801D4 (featuring the exact same turbine head/midrange driver and nautilus tube/diamond tweeter as the 802D4) being employed in some of the top recording studios around the world – thus, they are depended upon to replay the music fed to them as accurately as possible. 

     

    As you would then expect, when properly fed with well-recorded source material through quality amplification, these loudspeakers will bring you closer to an in-studio sound than you have likely experienced before.  Likewise, they will just as faithfully expose poor recordings that are not properly miked, too loud, too compressed, overly brassy or otherwise deficient.  This can be readily demonstrated if you listen to close-miked tracks where peak levels are clearly pushing well into the red, or if already distorted guitar amplification (the good, textured kind) is pushed-up another level to become etched and irritating, to say nothing if you navigate the waters of many 80’s and 90’s recordings (yes – of course there is plenty of quality music from this era, but it seems that recording engineers at the time were mostly sent to the pedal-to-the-metal-school of mastering subtlety).

     

    Audio scholars succinctly characterized the sound of the 802D4’s as monitor-like – and in my listening opinion that is, like the 802D4’s themselves, entirely accurate.  This is not to say that you cannot enjoy a whiskey while you listen to the 802D4’s – of course you can.  Select your source material appropriately, relax and surround yourself with aural goodness if that is what you are feeling.  As an example, Brian Bromberg’s The Saga of Harrison Crabfeathers from the album Wood – (44/16 via Qobuz) will have you sipping that whiskey at the edge of the stage in an intimate jazz club, Brain’s stand-up right in front of you, drums behind, and piano off to the right.  As I drifted into a musical trance enveloped by bass realism, I was honestly tricked for a flashing moment into thinking “this is a night I will never forget”.  No worries, the 802D4’s allow me to recreate it anytime I want.  Isn’t that the repeatable high most of us are striving for in our audio journey?    

     

    bw_802d4_absolute_mobil.jpgLikewise, don’t expect the 802D4’s to make excuses for recordings or sources in your collection or system that are lacking (mine exposed a bad PC audio driver in my first listening days, and I also learned that the 802D4’s do not require the same degree of toe-in as the 804D2’s – the upshot being several instances of significantly-wider sound-staging noted in my listening thus far).  I think accuracy vs. “warmth” or “listenability” is a tradeoff most of us understand.  If you are looking for a speaker to smooth-over everything in your collection and sound “good” no matter what it plays, you should probably consider other options.  If on the other hand you crave an in-home reference experience, and like me are addicted to the visceral reaction that music can trigger when we suddenly hear something evocative or strikingly more realistic from even familiar recordings, then this speaker may well be for you.  The effortless and yet often startlingly-good bass presence alone would be enough for the serious audiophile to justify their purchase.  What I wasn’t expecting was the amazingly open and layer-revealing nature of the midrange and tweeter that goes above and beyond my previous reference, bringing additional life to vocals and revealing new sounds that we all crave in our deep listening sessions.  Placing the 802D4’s into service marks the 5th landmark improvement in sound quality I have experienced in my audio journey of 40+ years.  They are precise, visceral, and highly recommended.

     

     

     

     




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    2 hours ago, PYP said:

    Enjoyed your review and subsequent comments.  Thank you.  

     

    As a lover of my 803D3s and the previous 803 iteration before that, I can imagine the excitement and pleasure of the 802D4 landing in your listening room.  

     

    To those who are interested in hearing them, it might be relevant to know that I've heard them sound rather bad in several showrooms, especially when they were not broken in sufficiently (if the showroom just got the speakers, it cannot be assumed they have played them for a month as MHW has).  And of course, the room, room treatments and positioning, all need to be optimized, just as with any speaker.   And sometimes the showroom utilize amps that don't have enough power or sources that are not neutral in the HF.  

     

    Personally,  I don't like bright sound and I've never found the B&W to sound bright in my own room.   Of course, this is all personal and comparative.   Given the warm bass and (to my ears) perfect midrange, I hear the overall balance as a little warm and definitely full.  Perhaps that is due in part to my choice of cables (?).  Also, diffusers between the speakers opened up the high end, without which (in my room) I believe would be perceived as brightness (my wife liked the resulting sound so much that she was hesitant about my plan to paint them, lest that ruin the sound).  

     

    Lastly, one of the advantages of the B&W brand is consistency from speaker to speaker and batch to batch.   It was interesting to read a confirmation of that in an interview with recording engineers at Abbey Road Studios.  They record in multiple studios and a valued quality is consistency in the "monitors." 

     

    Hope you have fun trying new gear to hear the best from those beauties.   Looking forward to reading about your findings.  

     

    I don't believe in speaker break in. It takes minutes to 1-2 hours. I do believe your ears get used to speakers, Just me and my opinion. If speakers sound bad out of the box, no amount of any break in will fix it.

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    Just now, botrytis said:

     

    I don't believe in speaker break in. It takes minutes to 1-2 hours. I do believe your ears get used to speakers, Just me and my opinion. If speakers sound bad out of the box, no amount of any break in will fix it.

    Do you know if there has been any objective testing of speaker break-in? 

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    1 hour ago, botrytis said:

     

    I don't believe in speaker break in. It takes minutes to 1-2 hours. I do believe your ears get used to speakers, Just me and my opinion. If speakers sound bad out of the box, no amount of any break in will fix it.

    Agreed that speakers shouldn't sound bad out of the box.   I understand the differences in opinion about gear breaking in as well as cables, but speakers are mechanical devices.  YMMV.

     

    I always follow the manufacturer's recommendation and for the 803D3 that was to bi-wire and to play them for about 35 hours (IIRC) to hear what they were built to sound like.    I thought they sounded good out of the box, but were muted.    I don't think any studio would use them as monitors if that was what they sounded like.  

     

    I suppose the drivers loosened up over time and the sound emerged.   The interesting part was that after about approximately 15 hours they sounded like they did in the showroom.  In the showroom, I had to listen around to that limitation of limited play, as well as the amplification, and to take a leap of faith.  That leap was based upon my familiarity with the previous iteration.  

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    9 minutes ago, botrytis said:

     

    There has been. There is also quite a bit of data about people getting used to sounds, after a certain period also.

     

    Speaker break-in data | Home Theater Forum and Systems (hometheatershack.com)

     

    And a huge thread on everyone's favorite place ASR.

    That link is probably the opposite of objective. Did you see all the room changes he did?

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    2 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

    That link is probably the opposite of objective. Did you see all the room changes he did?

     

    I was starting. I had work to do so I had to stop. 😁, reading science papers is more important, as that is what pays the bills.

     

    Changing physical parameters, as that is what break in would do, would mean the drivers crossovers points would also change.

     

    I am dealing with this currently as I am trying to design a pair of 2-way speakers to use some expensive and match tweeters my wife won at a DIY audio event (they are a matched pair and are MgO dome tweeters from Transducer Labs). Speaker design is not plug and play and it is a bit maddening at times.

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    I like bringing in science as that is my forte.

     

    More

     

    one more

     

    How do we divorce break in from adaptation of our hearing to it? It is impossible, the way audiophiles do it.

     

    I am not trying to understand, it is my science nature) as I hate things that don't have logical explanations. Much of what I read from like speaker manufacturers, is marketing speak and not science. Some intermix both.

     

    I do like single drivers but read the break in on some of those, from the manufacturers. 1000 hours? really?

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    This is a classic audiophile topic producing a range of opinions that run the full gamut from completely subjective to completely objective.  I do think both speaker break-in and listening-adaptation are involved, science supports the idea that both would be at play.  Now, how much of which is going on - that is harder to quantify since it has been proven in the context of many other audiophile discussion topics that we can not always measure and/or specify what we hear.   All that said, the quandary is this - how do you trust an in-store demo to translate to long-term in-home happiness?  My suggestions, based on 3 major speaker upgrades over 4 decades are as follows:

    • Upgrading speakers should be undertaken as a process, not an impulse buy. 
    • Start by casually observing as broad a net of speakers as you can reasonably consider.
    • If you (or your partner) are influenced by aesthetics, own that from the start - don't waste your time on speakers that are not going to make it in your front door.
    • Conversely, do NOT shut-out speakers that you believe to be beyond your budget (I'm talking reasonable flexibility here, not orders of magnitude).  You may be shocked to find that the level of satisfaction you can obtain is worth obtaining.
    • Once you have begun to develop what I would reasonably classify as a "crush" on a speaker or speakers (in my most recent upgrade cycle that included Wilson Sabrina X, Magico A3/A5, and Olympica Nova III/V) then you are ready to go audition.
    • Try your best to audition where the set-up and room can most closely resemble your own.  We all obsess over how everything else in our system sounds - how can that be ignored when we audition speakers?
    • Be sure to cover a very broad spectrum in your auditions.  Instead of listening to 10 tracks for 5 minutes each, listen to 50 for 1 minute of targeted testing.  Know the passages to go to in your favorite music - some that challenge your current speakers, and some that are well-played by your current speakers. 
    • The point is not to pitch the candidate speakers softballs - use your time to make sure you are finding real improvement over what you currently have and also to make sure the new speaker can deliver on passages that are already within your current speaker's capabilities.
    • When you find the speaker that broadens the spectrum of tracks/passages that sound great AND improves on tracks/passages you already though sounded great on your current speakers, then you are on it.

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    2 hours ago, botrytis said:

    I am dealing with this currently as I am trying to design a pair of 2-way speakers to use some expensive and match tweeters my wife won at a DIY audio event (they are a matched pair and are MgO dome tweeters from Transducer Labs). Speaker design is not plug and play and it is a bit maddening at times.

    PM semd. my friend !

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    54 minutes ago, DuckToller said:

    PM semd. my friend !

     

    Answered :D bud.

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    Let's hope that B&W has a healthy long-term future, as they are now owned by a medical device company.

     

    I think that will take a lot of hoping...

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    They are owned by Sound Untied since 2020. Marantz, Denon, and Classe are all owned by them also. At least they are owned by a company that owns other Audio companies, which bodes well for them.

     

    https://www.soundunited.com/

     

     

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    Sound United was purchased (via $800 million dollar loan) by an Italian medical device company who wants to use the SU brand's access to tech customers to sell their wearable medical device technology. That is, once they win their lawsuit against Apple and they become the only company in the world allowed to obtain medical info via wearable tech.

     

    What could go wrong?

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    Wow, I missed that one. I'm a day late and a dollar short. 

     

    B&W has had multiple ownership changes over the years and the products have held up pretty well. 

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    14 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

    Wow, I missed that one. I'm a day late and a dollar short. 

     

    B&W has had multiple ownership changes over the years and the products have held up pretty well. 

     

    I missed it too - when it was mentioned by @mfsoa I looked - first link.

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    On 4/5/2022 at 7:20 PM, MHWilliford said:

    I also listened to Wilson-Benesch, which I liked quite a bit though I found the value proposition steep for my wallet, and the sound maybe a little lean, but very much a speaker that impressed me and would suit certain ears well.

     

    Great article, along with your informative followup comments. Another big fan of B&W here.

     

    Regarding Wilson-Benesch — that's one brand I always seek out at audio shows, because they are so alluring to me. I think they image amazingly well, but perhaps at the expense of meat and bones density. 

     

    Thanks for your findings.

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    2 minutes ago, austinpop said:

     

    Great article, along with your informative followup comments. Another big fan of B&W here.

     

    Regarding Wilson-Benesch — that's one brand I always seek out at audio shows, because they are so alluring to me. I think they image amazingly well, but perhaps at the expense of meat and bones density. 

     

    Thanks for your findings.

    Gonna need to go to Munich Rajiv :~)

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    On 4/6/2022 at 8:22 PM, botrytis said:

    I don't believe in speaker break in. It takes minutes to 1-2 hours. I do believe your ears get used to speakers, Just me and my opinion. If speakers sound bad out of the box, no amount of any break in will fix it.

     You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. My experience and belief strongly run counter to your belief. I also don't believe that reputable speaker manufacturers who advise that their speakers require at least 100 hrs or more to "break in" - and will continue to improve up to 500 hrs - don't know what they are talking about. Or that they are simply offering marketing spin. In particular, the surrounds of many speaker drivers require that type of "break in" to lose their initial stiffness and sound natural. I suppose that changes in materials used may have altered this requirement. There are those who don't believe in "burn in" of electronic gear, a belief that also runs counter to that of reputable equipment manufacturers and my own experience. But that's a topic for discussion elsewhere.

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    17 minutes ago, Allan F said:

    the surrounds of many speaker drivers require that type of "break in" to lose their initial stiffness and sound natural.

     

    in 2011 I got the rotted foam surrounds of my Snell Type A III woofers replaced by an old school guy in Romford (UK) = Dave Smith aka DK loudspeakers. He had quite a reputation as you may see e.g. here - especially for rebuilds and solving problems others wouldn't take on. Old KEF employee it was said. As I took my lower cabinets away with me following repair, he told me to expect the drivers to be stiff for a while - with the barely veiled implication that I would be able to hear what he was talking about. I didn't - but probably because my system was built only very gradually behind these wonderful creations - not because he was wrong. I had/have no reason to be doubtful of someone with his kind of experience.

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