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    At Long Last! Listen To Your (Physical) SACDs Through an Outboard DAC

     

    At Long Last! Listen To Your SACDs Through an Outboard DAC
    George Graves

     

     

    When Sony/Phillips Announced their new Super Audio CD format (SACD) in 1999/2000, Sony opened a marketing office in NYC to advertise and promote the new format. They reached out to a number of  audio writers (including, yours truly) with the “gift” of a new Sony SCD-777ES player (listing for $3500) and a “subscription” to all SACD releases as they came out – regardless of label! As a result of that, and the many SACDs that I received from companies such as Telarc and Reference Recordings, etc, after Sony shut that office down (not to mention the ones that I bought myself), I have hundreds of SACDs!

     

    For years, I used my SCD-777ES player to play them and enjoyed what I thought was great SACD playback. After all, the Sony turned out to be, at the time, the best regular CD player that I had heard. Why wouldn’t the SACD portion of the player be just as exemplary? Then, about five years ago, the 777 stopped being able to play SACDs. It still played regular CDs but it wouldn’t even “recognize” the SACD layer in the dual layer discs and the early Sony SACDs, which were single layer (and culled mostly from the Columbia Records catalogue) wouldn’t play at all. I was devastated. I had recently bought a really cheap Sony BDP-BX37 Blu-Ray player on E-Bay and when I subsequently discovered that it would also play SACDs, I was ecstatic! Sadly the euphoria didn’t last long as this Blu-Ray player’s SACD playback was terrible and certainly not satisfying to anyone who was used to the SCD-777ES.

     

    In the meantime I had taken the 777 ES to the Sony warranty repair shop in my area, and was told that the problem was that the laser LED for the SACD portion of the player had failed and there were no more spares (an old story with Sony) as they made only a certain number of spare laser assemblies and this turned out to be a weak spot in the player’s design. In other words, almost all of the 777s either had failed or will fail in this manner! So the player could not be fixed (anyone interested in buying that brick from me?).

     

    The Blu-Ray player sounded so mediocre playing SACDs, that I essentially stopped listening to them. My SACD copies of Miles Davis’ “Kinda Blue” and “Sketches of Spain,” Dave Brubeck’s “Time Out,” Bernstein’s “Rhapsody in Blue,” Copland’s “Appalachian Spring” and all the other Columbia SACDs that I own couldn’t even be ripped to iTunes or JRiver’s Media Player because these were single-layer discs with no Red Book CD layer.

     

    When I obtained an Oppo UDP-205 media player, I was heartened because the player used a state-of-the-art DAC section built around the top-of-the-line ESS “SaberDAC” ES9038PRO DAC chip and it supported SACD. Again, I was disappointed. The SaberDACs are of the Delta-Sigma variety and are (in my humble opinion) far inferior to many of the modern R2R (ladder DAC) designs for PCM, but due to their single-bit architecture should be perfect for SACD. So, I don’t understand why the SaberDAC Pro sounds so mediocre in this regard.  Both the Schiit Yggdrasil and the super-cheap Schiit Modi Multi-bit DACs performed rings around the ES9038PRO chips in the Oppo on PCM, but alas, none of the Schiit DACs support SACD. The Oppo, while it does support SACD, it really doesn’t sound all that much better than my cheap Sony Blu-Ray player. 

     

     

    Out of the Box Thinking


    I was contemplating writing-off my entire SACD collection because, let’s face it, who wants to listen to SACDs that sound, essentially no better (albeit somewhat different) than their Red Book versions? I was pretty much at a loss. When I received the Denafrips Pontus DAC, I was interested to note that all of the company’s DACs support the I2S digital interconnect protocol via HDMI. I also noted that the Oppo had two HDMI outputs. ‘VIDEO’ was, of course, for connection to one’s TV for playing Blu-Ray discs and DVDs. But I found the second one was labeled ‘AUDIO’ and that intrigued me. I also knew that even though no SACD player (to my knowledge) ever broke-out the DSD signal (the actual SACD digital format) from any player, that DSD signal was available as part of the HDMI digital video protocol.

     

    That got me thinking. I wondered if I could just connect an HDMI cable from the AUDIO  output of the Oppo directly to the HDMI input of the Pontus DAC. Even though I really didn’t expect it to work, I figured that it was worth a try. It couldn’t harm anything, and who knew? I might “get lucky”. Well I wasn’t disappointed when it didn’t work, after all that’s what I suspected would be the outcome.


    But, I was still intrigued with the possibility. The fact remained that the DSD signal from an SACD was available on the HDMI interface. But further reading of the Pontus manual told me that the HDMI input was dedicated solely to I2S digital signals. Was there any way to convert the HDMI from a Blu-Ray player to I2S? I went on E-Bay and searched for “HDMI to I2S”. My ad hoc search yielded a series of circuit boards and complete units that took an HDMI output from video sources and output I2S over HDMI as well as coaxial and optical SPDIF! All of the units and boards seemed to be the same thing from different vendors. The bare circuit boards were around US$45, and the complete, packaged units (same circuit) seemed to be US$55-$60. I ordered one of the complete units from China (naturally) and waited for it to arrive.

     

    Here’s the URL for the E-Bay page containing all of the converters from different vendors: https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2499334.m570.l1312&_nkw=i2s&_sacat=0

     

     

    Connecting the Oppo Through the I2S Converter Box to the Denafrips DAC

     

    The I2S converter arrived from China during Christmas week. I couldn’t have asked for a nicer Christmas gift to myself. My friend Ted and I busied ourselves hooking it up.

     

    Let’s take a look at the converter unit. The box is about four-inches by four-inches by about two inches. Normally, this unit does not require an external DC power supply as most players will provide the needed 5 Volt DC via the HDMI cable. But, in case it does require external power. It's connected by the kind of barrel connector that often comes with wall-wart type supplies. The converter, however, comes with no power supply, wall-wart or otherwise, and the buyer must supply his own if his player does not supply the needed voltage or if the current from one’s HDMI source is insufficient. I felt that a better supply, than that available from my Oppo player, might be worth it, so I employed an ifi brand ‘iUSB’ box that I wasn’t using and a cable that had a USB Type A connector on one end and a suitable barrel connector on the other (BTW, about the unit’s power supply polarity; the unit comes with no documentation, and I had to test the polarity myself with a multimeter. So, to save any readers who want to try this project, the trouble of checking this themselves, the barrel is negative and the “tip” is positive.).

     

     

    image1.jpg image2.jpg

     


    The box has three HDMI female connectors, one is located on the audio output interface side of the unit. This is the output that goes to one’s DAC. The “output” side also sports a coax and a Toslink SPDIF connector and an I2S connector that I don’t recognize (and isn’t used in this application). The ‘HDMI side’ of the unit has the HDMI input from one’s player, and an HDMI output to one’s TV. Also provided is a three-position slide switch that enables the user switch the HDMI output between one’s TV, an amplifier that takes HDMI in, or ostensibly both (it’s labeled DUO, so I suspect that’s what it means – No manual, remember?). Then of course there is the 5 volt external power supply jack and a red LED indicating that an outboard power supply is connected and is turned on. 

     

    With the Oppo UDP-205, one connects the “Audio” HDMI output of the player to the input of the I2S converter box (if your player doesn’t have an audio-only HDMI output, use the video HDMI output) and the output of the HDMI side of the converter box goes to the HDMI input on one’s DAC.  That’s pretty straightforward.  

     

    Unfortunately, unless one is lucky (and depending on the brand of I2S connected DAC), that’s not all one must do. Apparently, there is no standard for connecting I2S over HDMI. The manufacturers can use any pins not used by the HDMI standard in the connector for the I2S interface. In many cases the user would have to find which pins on the converter box have the I2S signal on them and then perhaps rewire the DAC’s HDMI (or other I2S connector) to match. It is possible that your DSD-capable DAC doesn’t have an HDMI connector for I2S. The converter box also outputs I2S over both coax and Toslink. Denafrips has thoughtfully provided their DACs with a method for using the front panel switch buttons to allow the user to try all the different possible combinations. When the correct one is found, the I2S light on the front panel illuminates. Rather than go through the procedure here, I invite interested readers to go to the YouTube video listed below:

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    The video says that it's for the Venus II model, but it also applies to the Pontus, and both the Terminator and the Terminator+ models. The only Denafrips DAC that doesn’t support I2S is the entry level Ares II.


    As luck would have it, if you are using one of the Denafrips DACs that support I2S, The correct pinout to interface with the Chinese converter bought from E-Bay is the default Denafrips’ configuration!

     

     

    Operation

     

    Once the I2S light on the front panel is lit, you’re all set. Just insert an SACD into the player’s transport and hit play. The DSD light will come on and 44.1 KHz sampling light will illuminate, and the 1X light will also light-up. Ignore the sampling rate light, but the 1X light will indicate that a DSD 64 source is playing. DSD 64 is the default for SACD, and 1X is probably the only light that one will ever see. 2X would mean DSD128, and 3X would indicate DSD256. DSD512 is not supported, but that’s OK because there are no SACDs (to my knowledge) in either DSD 128 or DSD 512.

     

     

    Sound

     

    Be prepared for the best SACD playback that you have ever heard! I wish that my SCD-777ES was still functioning, to compare, but I do have the Oppo UDP-205 with the highly touted ESS ES9038PRO DAC chip and I have an inexpensive Sony Blu-Ray player that also plays SACD. Neither of them are even in the same galaxy with the Denafrips Pontus I2S configuration! The bass is deeper than the ESS DAC, the highs are cleaner and much less grainy. The soundstage is both wider and deeper and the image specificity (in recordings where such exists) is simply more holographic. Of course, all of this is contingent on what brand of I2S-capable DAC you end up using. In short, I noticed similar sonic characteristics with the Pontus that I experienced listening to 24/96, or 24/192 LPCM sources on the unit. 

     

    In conclusion, just for fun, I tried the setup with my cheap Sony BDP-BX37 Blu-Ray player (for which I paid less than $50). I turned on the DSD over HDMI option in the audio settings and connected it to the I2S converter box via the video HDMI out on the Sony. It worked perfectly as I suspected it would, but unexpectedly, the output from the Sony, though, supposedly merely a digital DSD data stream (after all, we are only using the players as transports), sounded much worse than the same SACDs with the Oppo as the transport!

     

    If you choose to go this route, I suspect that any Blu-Ray player that advertises that it will play SACD discs via HDMI will play them without hassle, but be aware that the end result will depend on the quality of the transport player every bit as much as it will depend on the quality of the I2S compatible DSD capable DAC. 


         

     




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    9 hours ago, slchow said:

    Hi, I'm try to setup my Oppo 205 with the Pontus using the I2s input. However whats the 'default Denafrips’ configuration' for the pin out for the connection. Thanks

     

    Your exact situation explained here.......

     

     

    And see here for instructions if necessary

    https://www.vinshineaudio.com/product-page/denafrips-pontus-r2r-dac

     

     

     

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    Hi, I'm able to use the Oppo 205 as a transport connected to the Pontus 2 via the I2S converter.  I'm able to play almost all the file including DSD 64 file. When playing the file the pontus led will light up 1X that is for DSD 64 file. However when I play the DSD 128 file the led of the Pontus till show 1X. It supose to show 2x and there is no sound coming out from my player. Anyone has this issue when playing DSD 128 file? Your feedback will be very much appreciated. Thanks.

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    I purchased this device after reading the review. When using it with my Topping E50 DAC and my Sony UBP-X800 the Topping wouldn't accept the Sony's DSD signal. I switched its output to PCM and the Topping then indicated a sampling rate of 176.4 kHz. It appears the Topping can't accept DSD except through its USB output. 

     

    I then moved to my main stereo with its Moon 280D DAC and found the same results. As you mentioned in your article the device has no manual. I'm assuming that the coax and optical outputs on the device are outputting an I2S signal as opposed to standard DSD and this is why, even with my 280D, I must switch the output to PCM. 

     

    Would you agree that this is the case?

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    Another advantage of this device is that should you be employing a blu ray player with a two channel system with no HDMI input, it allows you to send the 24/96 signal to your outboard DAC.

     

    Until now the TV was sending (via fibre op cable) a 24/48 signal to my DAC. With this inexpensive device I can now play blu ray audio discs and listen to the the full 24/96 audio. 

     

    Of course, this will be a moot point once I set up the new home theatre.

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    5 hours ago, 51514brad said:

    I purchased this device after reading the review. When using it with my Topping E50 DAC and my Sony UBP-X800 the Topping wouldn't accept the Sony's DSD signal. I switched its output to PCM and the Topping then indicated a sampling rate of 176.4 kHz. It appears the Topping can't accept DSD except through its USB output. 

     

    I then moved to my main stereo with its Moon 280D DAC and found the same results. As you mentioned in your article the device has no manual. I'm assuming that the coax and optical outputs on the device are outputting an I2S signal as opposed to standard DSD and this is why, even with my 280D, I must switch the output to PCM. 

     

    Would you agree that this is the case?

     

    Your Topping should accept DSD via DoP using the right HDMI De embedder.

    Please ensure you have a DoP capable model and are hooked up the following way......

    Sony set to bitstream DSD via (audio)HDMI out to De embedder.

    Then coax out from De embedder to DAC.

     

    Coax and optical outputs are DoP and PCM................. not I2S

     

    You must also choose the right setting on the De embedder for hi res stereo playback.

     

    WRT your Moon 280D.............

    According to the User Manual it accepts DSD via it's USB input only..

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    Channel reversal on I2S with the Chinese HDMI to I2S box - As long as you have a Denafrips Pontus (or above) -SORTED the easy way:

    S DSD Channel Swap Configuration

    1. Select I²S (A if you have 2 inputs) Input

    2. Press the Mute button once to enter configuration mode

    3. Press the NOS button momentarily

    CO1 On = DSD Channel Swap

    CO2 On = Normal

    4. Wait for 10s

    5. DAC back in operational mode

    The next hint I can give you is:

    Use a dedicated I2S cable between the box and the DAC. ( between the SACD/Universal player and the box you must use a HDMI cable.

    So far I'm enjoying very much what's coming out of my speakers!!!

     

    Setup: Digital - TEAC VRDS10(as CD transport), OPPO BDP-103(as SACDtransport) both into Denafrips Venus II      (the latter through the HDMI to I2S box).

               Analog - Heavily modified Technics SL 1210 Mk2, TimeStep external LPSU, Jolida JD9 SE1 Phono preamp.

               Densen B 200/Densen B 300, Martin Logan ESL EM-X

    Enjoy the music

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    I have been using a Sony  SCD-XA5400ES with the Chinese Box into a Terminator II (and previously a Pontus II) and the sound quality of CDs and SACDs is just amazing (everybody knows all the good adjectives!). However, I recently acquired a Denafrips Avatar with I2S O/Ps and synchronizing the clock with the Terminator II.... only playing back CDs though. Very interesting sound , different from the SCD-XA5400 and possibly more expansive and accurate... still comprehending/quantifying what I am hearing.   Conclusion...the I2S interface is the way to go always.  

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    On 3/13/2022 at 2:27 AM, linger63 said:

     

    Your Topping should accept DSD via DoP using the right HDMI De embedder.

    Please ensure you have a DoP capable model and are hooked up the following way......

    Sony set to bitstream DSD via (audio)HDMI out to De embedder.

    Then coax out from De embedder to DAC.

     

    Coax and optical outputs are DoP and PCM................. not I2S

     

    You must also choose the right setting on the De embedder for hi res stereo playback.

     

    WRT your Moon 280D.............

    According to the User Manual it accepts DSD via it's USB input only..

     

    Having just become a new member to this forum because of this thread, first a big thanks to its initiator gmgraves, to hgaggioni, linger63 and all other respondents.

    My setup:

    Sony UBP-X800M2 blu-ray player HDMI audio-only output   -   HDMI audio extractor   -   optical SPDIF input to RME ADI-2 DAC FS

     

    The extractor i'm currently using is a J-Tech Digital JTD18G-H5CH. This extractor is available with many brands (Cable Matters, Monoprice, Orei, Vanco). It is capable of extracting 176.4/24 PCM from SACD and put that out over Toslink optical SPDIF. To that end the EDID selector of the extractor should bet set to 5CH (or bitstream, depending on brand). To my understanding, conversion DSD-PCM takes place inside the Sony player and reverse conversion PCM-DSD by the ESS delta-sigma DAC chip in the RME DAC. It sounds fine.

     

    The problem starts when playing 5.1 DVDs on the Sony. The 5CH setting of the extractor causes only the front left & right audio channels to be sent optically to the DAC, so spoken audio is normally absent. I don't want to change the EDID setting for reasons of convenience; the extractor is hidden in the back of the TV furniture.

    Question is, does the ChiFi black box that supports DOP64 over SPDIF, act similarly? Or is it fit for both SACD and 5.1 DVD playback with its TV/AMP/DOU selector in one and the same position? Which position is that?

     

    Thanks in advance for tips & tricks.

     

     

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    5 hours ago, Fench said:

     

    My setup:

    Sony UBP-X800M2 blu-ray player HDMI audio-only output   -   HDMI audio extractor   -   optical SPDIF input to RME ADI-2 DAC FS

    The extractor i'm currently using is a J-Tech Digital JTD18G-H5CH. This extractor is available with many brands (Cable Matters, Monoprice, Orei, Vanco). It is capable of extracting 176.4/24 PCM from SACD and put that out over Toslink optical SPDIF. To that end the EDID selector of the extractor should bet set to 5CH (or bitstream, depending on brand). To my understanding, conversion DSD-PCM takes place inside the Sony player and reverse conversion PCM-DSD by the ESS delta-sigma DAC chip in the RME DAC. It sounds fine.

    The problem starts when playing 5.1 DVDs on the Sony. The 5CH setting of the extractor causes only the front left & right audio channels to be sent optically to the DAC, so spoken audio is normally absent. I don't want to change the EDID setting for reasons of convenience; the extractor is hidden in the back of the TV furniture.

    Question is, does the ChiFi black box that supports DOP64 over SPDIF, act similarly? Or is it fit for both SACD and 5.1 DVD playback with its TV/AMP/DOU selector in one and the same position? Which position is that?

     

    Thanks in advance for tips & tricks.

     

     

     

     

    Firstly you are using the wrong extractor for DSD from SACD.

    Your current extractor does not do DSD (no DoP and no I2S) so you have to convert DSD to PCM 176.4 in your Sony before sending to extractor and then on to DAC and this is not ideal (kind of defeats the purpose)

     

    You need a DoP capable extractor (don't need I2S in your case) so you can set your Sony to output unconverted DSD to it.

    The extractor then sends this DSD to your DAC (with NO reverse conversion) and you have avoided extra processing steps (which would most likely have resulted in lower SQ). 

     

    WRT 5.1...........Why would you want to send a 5.1 audio stream to a 2 channel DAC?

    You could just select the 2 channel audio option in the DVD's menu instead.

     

    WRT "switch positions"...........You only need to worry about that if you also have an AVR or Pre/Pro in the system and wish to use the converters HDMI out as a 5.1 ch audio passthrough.

     

    In any case for you I would recommend a DoP64 over SPDIF capable HDMI converter which will match up perfectly with your DoP capable DAC.............just like me!!!!!😄

     

     

    TIP...........Try Coax instead of Optical if you get new box.....

    FWIW.....I tried both and preferred Coax.

     

    Good Luck

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    Thanks for the fast response.

    32 minutes ago, linger63 said:

    Your current extractor does not do DSD

    [...]

    You need a DSD capable extractor so you can set your Sony to output unconverted DSD to it.

    I know, that's one of the reasons i'm looking at this ChiFi box.

    34 minutes ago, linger63 said:

    WRT 5.1...........Why would you want to send a 5.1 audio stream to a 2 channel DAC?

    You could just select the 2 channel audio option in the DVD's menu instead.

    I don't want to send 5.1 to the DAC. However, when i don't set the extractor's EDID to 5CH, the Sony will not send hi-res SACD audio to the extractor; only 44.1 kHz PCM (no 176.4 kHz). I can't find any DVD menu on my DVDs for switching to 2CH and even when i set the Sony to downmix 5CH to stereo, it won't do that over its HDMI outputs. I contacted Sony Support on this, no luck.

    52 minutes ago, linger63 said:

    WRT "switch positions"...........You only need to worry about that if you also have an AVR or Pre/Pro in the system and wish to use the converters HDMI out as a 5.1 ch passthrough.

    0K thanks. Still, I'd like to know if the switch on the ChiFi box needs a different position when switching from SACD (DSD) to DVD (PCM) playback or vice versa, for 2CH stereo audio output in each case.

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    1 hour ago, Fench said:

    Thanks for the fast response.

    I know, that's one of the reasons i'm looking at this ChiFi box.

    I don't want to send 5.1 to the DAC. However, when i don't set the extractor's EDID to 5CH, the Sony will not send hi-res SACD audio to the extractor; only 44.1 kHz PCM (no 176.4 kHz). I can't find any DVD menu on my DVDs for switching to 2CH and even when i set the Sony to downmix 5CH to stereo, it won't do that over its HDMI outputs. I contacted Sony Support on this, no luck.

    0K thanks. Still, I'd like to know if the switch on the ChiFi box needs a different position when switching from SACD (DSD) to DVD (PCM) playback or vice versa, for 2CH stereo audio output in each case.

     

    WRT 2 channel audio on DVD.............DVD's should all have a main menu where you can select chapters, languages, audio etc.........it should come up automatically when you load one.

    Many of them offer a 2 channel option.

    Also........Your Sony remote should have an "audio" button you can use to switch between available audio options.

     

    ChiFi box would NOT need switching changes as any switching is only related to stereo vs 5.1 ch output and you only want stereo so once you determined best switch setting for stereo it would then just stay there.

     

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    On 5/3/2021 at 7:35 PM, Gerry E. said:

    I also purchased a Sony UBP-X800M2 digital player for $299 USD.

     

    Hi Gerry E., it's been a year, but did you get your UBP-X800M2 to work with the ChiFi box, in particular DOP64 on the coaxial and optical SPDIF outputs of the extractor?

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    18 hours ago, linger63 said:

    ChiFi box would NOT need switching changes

     

    Thanks again, linger63.

    I've been ordering a bunch of extractors before and returned most of them due to incompatibility with the Sony player. Returning seems to be difficult with the box at hand. Hopefully someone on the forum can confirm it to work well with the Sony UBP-X800M2, both on SACD and DVD playback (see above).

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    Great post! I am also trying this solution with this I2S box to use it with my Denon DBP-2012UD HDMI out player. I’ve just ordered the box from eBay and 2 short HDMI cables. I hope this works as I am currently experiencing some audio artefacts on the Pontus II DAC with the coaxial inputs.
    If you’re interested, you can read my post here:
    https://community.roonlabs.com/t/denafrips-pontus-ii-audio-artifacts/200540

    I’ll report back and let you know if this works ;-) 
    Cheers!

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    Need help!

     

    This setup looks very promising with Oppo UDP-205 HDMI Audio to Pontus (I) on I2S but has not worked yet. Possibly a configuration issue on my part.

     

    I purchased the Digital Audio Interface Output box from China on eBay as suggested here and on other forums. Connected HDMI OUT (Audio Only) to the HDMI input (Red light comes on) then HDMI output of the Interface (Green light comes on) to the Pontus I2S input. All I get is static hiss with slight music in the background from the SACD. This is with the OPPO audio setup to output “Bitstream” and “DSD”. Tried Auto modes but that did not work either.

     

    Any advice would be most appreciated. I have a fairly large SACD collection and would like to listen through the R2R DAC vice the ESS chip which does not sound as good.

     

    Many thanks in advance.

     

    Paul

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    Hello Paul,

     

    Please read the intructions of the Pontus DAC : https://www.vinshineaudio.com/product-page/denafrips-pontus-r2r-dac

     

    The ChiFi box comes (if my memory serves me well) with 1x 2x 4x  = 1 0 0 ... to match the PS Audio DAC (connected via i2s).

    Just  try it and keep changing configurations (000 - 111) until it sounds correct. Be aware that you will find possibly 2 combinations that will sound correct but the channels are reversed (the left channel is in the right speaker and the right channel is on the left speaker) then .. keep changing. 

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