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    Thoughts On Immersive Audio

     

     

    My immersive audio system is fully installed and for the last several days, I've been listening for nearly 10 hours per day. It has been a transcendent audio experience to say the least. It's something that I hope everyone who loves music can experience sooner rather than later. By experience, I mean on a real immersive 7.1.4 or similar audio system. Sure, headphones are "capable" of playing immersive audio, as is an Atmos sound bar, but there's no substitute for the real thing. Much more on system setup and sound quality coming soon. 

     

    In addition to being elated with immersive audio, I'm very happy to see much enthusiasm for the topic by members of the Audiophile Style community. Some are reasonably skeptical, while others are full steam ahead. The best part for me is that everyone appears to be interested in the who, what, when, where, why, and how of immersive audio. I love educating people on how to squeeze more enjoyment out of our wonderful hobby. It's what I did when I started the site back in November, 2007 and it's what I continue to do today. 

     

    When I started digging into immersive audio, I really had no idea if people would come along for the journey. However, I'm not one of those guys who can give the people what they want, because they want it. By that I mean, I have to write for myself, about what interests me and what makes me excited, and I hope that others enjoy what I do and that it's helpful to them. The great part about this immersive audio journey is that my enthusiasm for it has only increased with every passing day, and I hope that translates into what I write and moves others to see and hear what I see and hear. 

     

    I don't consider myself an expert on anything, but I eat, sleep, and breathe this stuff, researching, talking to people in the industry (HiFi and Music), and rolling my sleeves up, getting my hands dirty with it to get personal experience. Here are some thoughts on immersive audio, with respect to our own world of high fidelity. 

     


    One - Classical

     

    I've listened to more classical music in the last week, than I have in the last several years combined. The sole reason is immersive audio. The music hasn't changed, but the presentation has. There is no better genre for immersive audio than classical music. One reason is that no genre has dedicated venues such as the Berliner Philharmonie and the Wiener Musikverein, which play such a large role in the sound of the performance. Immersive audio has the ability to place the listener in any seat in the house, to hear the musicians, the attack, sustain, decay, release, and the reverberations of the space exactly as they sounded during the performance. Call me crazy, but I have no interest in hearing the reverberations and bad echos from a Pearl Jam show at Target Center in Minneapolis. 

     

    One example of immersive audio recreating a concert venue impeccably, can be heard on the album John Williams, The Berlin Concert. The second track, titled Olympic Fanfare and Theme, has a little venue noise before the track starts. It's only about 2 seconds before the track, but it's enough venue information to give the listener really good placement cues. Once the music starts, and one can hear all the music and reverb, it's fantastic, but even the tiny two second clip is good enough to create the ultimate illusion. This is similar in a way to playing an album recorded on tape. When one hits play, tape his is often present before the music starts. With immersive audio, the venue is often present when there is no music playing. 

     

    Last night, I opened the Berlin Philharmonic's app on AppleTV, to see the following message.

     

    IMG_5304.png


    IMG_5305.pngWhat a pleasant surprise. I knew this was in the works, but thought it may have slipped through the cracks given the length of time it took to release it. I started watching a concert, clicked on the little gear icon to select the audio presentation, and saw Immersive Audio (Dolby Atmos) as an option. What surprised me most, was that my ten year old daughter, who wasn't paying much attention to what I was doing, asked if we could listen to the concert in Atmos in my listening room! What a shock! Immersive audio has piqued her interest. 

     

    I know this is one small anecdotal story, but my experience listening to classical and my daughter's interest in something from the Berlin Philharmonic, are two things that have not happened until now. This is good for music, musicians, storied venues, and consumers among many others. 

     

    Also note, Deutsche Grammophon is leading the charge into immersive audio, with tons of releases in Atmos. I wish more titles were released on Blu-ray so I could rip the lossless TrueHD content, but I'll take the best version I can get over nothing. Every new DG release I see is available in high resolution stereo and Dolby Atmos on Apple Music. It's fantastic to see DG embrace immersive audio. My wallet is much thinner because of all the Blu-ray Discs I've ordered lately, but in the grand scheme of high end audio, the price is peanuts. Well worth it.


    A couple lossless TrueHD Atmos albums I've been listening to lately:

     

    Herbert von Karajan - Ludwig Van Beethoven: 9 Symphonies
    Herbert von Karajan - Sibelius Complete Recordings on Deutsche Grammophon

     

     

    beethoven.jpg sibelius.jpg

     

     

     

    Two - Who, What, When, Where


    Let's take these out of the traditional order, and start with the "WHAT." 

     

    What. Immersive Audio has a loose definition because of the range of devices on which it can be played. From headphones, to soundbars, to discrete 12 channel systems, it can be played on all of them. However, based on my research I'd say that immersive audio is any music that has discrete height information embedded into the recording. It's distinctly separate from the playback hardware or software. Atmos music and Auro 3D have height channels embedded into the recordings, whereas traditional 5.1 7.1, and DTS MA HD don't. The height channels really matter for an immersive experience. 

     

    Spatial Audio is Apple's addition to Dolby Atmos and is only employed when listening to Atmos music while using specific Apple headphones. Spatial Audio enables listeners to use head tracking that leaves the music stationary even when one's head turns.

     

    When. Atmos is nothing new, but Atmos music is fairly new. Apple really kicked things into high gear for consumers in 2021 when it announced support for Atmos music. 


    Where. Immersive audio isn't everywhere yet, but Apple Music somewhat forced Tidal and Amazon to follow. Dolby and Dirac also announced a partnership to bring Atmos music to cars, this past week. The discrete channels are usually present in cars and Dirac is very good with DSP, so I call this a win. 

     

    P.S. The content exists, why not offer it to consumers? Qobuz, are you listening :~)


    Who. "Everyone" is either releasing immersive audio, mixing immersive audio, or waiting in line to do both. According to Dolby, in 2020 there were 30 studios equipped to mix in Atmos. Now there are almost 600. That's a 1,900% increase. Many mixing studios have months long waiting lists to re-mix A List content for Dolby Atmos. 

     

    A quick look at Apple Music's Spatial Audio page shows a glimpse at the high number and quality of Atmos releases. By quality I don't mean sound quality, but A List artists and albums rather than another Scottish Nose Whistle album, us audiophiles are accustomed to. Every week more Atmos music releases come out, by more current and legacy artists. Pearl Jam had its debut album Ten, its fourth album No Code, and its latest album Gigaton remixed for Atmos. This is one example among many that shows immersive audio is real this time. 

     

    Note: After listening to No Code on my immersive system, it's the only way I want to listen to it going forward. Much more on this coming soon.

     

    I encourage everyone to browse the Atmos releases here.

     

    With respect to who is listening to immersive audio and the popular questions surrounding who will actually install an immersive system, let's take a step back. The mass market already has many solutions for this in the form of headphones, soundbars, and packaged systems capable of reproducing immersive audio. Not the height of living, but the install base is gigantic. Then we come to those of us who have spent more on cables than cars, installed special ground rods outside, taken over complete sections of our houses in pursuit of our passion, and the list goes on forever. It's funny to hear these same people, tell me that an immersive system is a bridge too far for people. To that I say, where there's a will, there's a way. If the end result is the ultimate sonic illusion, I think we should stop thinking about who will actually do this and start thinking about how to do it. 

     


    Three - Why

     

    As people with brains, we want to know why immersive audio is being released. We believe it will give us a view into the future viability of the format and it will tell us more about it than all the other items. The "WHY" is the foundation, and a solid foundation is absolutely necessary. 

    Audiophiles wondering about the drivers of immersive audio may think it would be best if the developers were altruistic audiophiles themselves, who saw this as a pursuit for the ultimate in sound quality. However, we've been down this road before and we know it's a dead end. It's better to have the mainstream driving immersive audio for whatever reason, because then it isn't a niche looking for marketshare or trying to stay afloat financially. Once something is mass market, the high end can perfect it and make it as good as possible. For example, listen to some of what Morten Lindberg from the 2L label is producing in immersive formats. It's insanely good. The formats of Atmos and Auro 3D are a done deal, and the music is already being perfected. It's time for more hardware manufacturers to get on board. 

     

    Driving the immersive audio push are a number of companies with quarterly numbers to hit and products to sell. I see Apple and virtual reality as a major driver of immersive audio. I also see the record labels smiling because immersive formats, for the most part, have never been released via a purchase model (physical or download). They now have Crown Jewels in their vaults again and can charge a monthly fee for access. 

     

    Change is also a driver of immersive audio. We've had mono, stereo, and many attempts at succeeding formats. For the most part, I believe change is good. It can take things to a new level or make one realize just how much one likes the existing version. In other words, don't fix what isn't broken. However, change doesn't always mean the existing solution is replaced. Supplementing stereo with immersive audio is a change we should all embrace.

     

    No matter the reasons for immersive audio, a gigantic benefit for audiophiles is that we get to enjoy it and we don't have to push it upon the masses. 

     

    I completely understand the more skeptical audiophiles among us. We've been promised the birth of a new audio world in the not to distant past, and have seen countless next-best-things come and go. The reasons why any product exists can help ease ease one's hesitation and accelerate its adoption. That I get. Especially when we're talking about audio components that cost more than we'd like to admit. 

     

    On the other hand, what does it take to convince people that a format is real enough to embrace it? For some of us, it only takes a favorite recording that sounds spectacular. I know people who purchased analog tape rigs in the last couple years because Acoustic Sounds released a handful of tapes they like. For others, it's impossible to convince them that anything other than stereo is worth the time and money. Fortunately, it isn't my job or goal to convince anyone that immersive audio is the present and future, and that they should dive in head first. I'm just trying to relay my experience, my enjoyment, share what I know and what I see about immersive audio, much like I did with computer audio over a decade ago. 

     

    I certainly think immersive audio is the present and future of the mainstream, and that the high end has the ability to take it to amazingly new heights. To the hesitant among us, I'll quote Jewel Kilcher, "Everything's temporary given enough time." 

     


    Four - How

     

    I'm going to save the "HOW" for another article, where I'll detail exactly how I'm getting amazing sound in my listening room, by supplementing my two channel system with an immersive system. Please notice that I said supplement, not replace. I'm still a card-carrying, knuckle-dragging audiophile who loves two channel stereo. It's what I grew up listening to and it's impossible to get it out of me, no matter how great immersive audio sounds. 

     

    I will say that my immersive system is among the most unique in the world, and capable of stunning sound. I'm using custom 65,000 tap convolution filters from Accurate Sound, and have the ability to upsample to DSD256 with HQPlayer. All Wilson Audio speakers with Constellation and Mytek amplification, Merging Technologies digital, and Transparent Audio cabling throughout.  Here's an updated system list (LINK).

     

    I can't wait to write about it all for everyone, in detail. The problem is that I have to stop listening long enough, to compose the articles :~)

     

     




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    23 minutes ago, Kal Rubinson said:

    IMHO, yes.  Sometimes, I prefer that to the "immersive" presentation.

    Not really.  It did so in multichannel and still does.

     

    Um OK.

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    Chris, can you point us to information on ripping DTS and Atmos from Blu-Ray? I have it figured out for DVD-A and SACD. 

     

    If it is one those multi-step processes that requires several programs  I'm not interested, but if as easy as SACD (once you get it set up) then I would give it a try, otherwise I'll just play the disc.

     

    thanks

     

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    Just now, bbosler said:

    Chris, can you point us to information on ripping DTS and Atmos from Blu-Ray? I have it figured out for DVD-A and SACD. 

     

    If it is one those multi-step processes that requires several programs  I'm not interested, but if as easy as SACD (once you get it set up) then I would give it a try, otherwise I'll just play the disc.

     

    thanks

     

    I touch on it here - 

     

     

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    Chris:  Have you given any thought as to whether your room treatments would want to change for "immersive" versus stereo?  Specifically, in stereo we generally assume room reflections to be part of our sound stage, in immersive it would seem that you would want a "deader"acoustic space so as to let the speakers do all the talking.  

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    1 minute ago, sdolezalek said:

    Chris:  Have you given any thought as to whether your room treatments would want to change for "immersive" versus stereo?  Specifically, in stereo we generally assume room reflections to be part of our sound stage, in immersive it would seem that you would want a "deader"acoustic space so as to let the speakers do all the talking.  

    I have thought about this a little, but not more than that. I still love two channel, so adjustments could detract from that. At the same time, I don’t want to make immersive suffer because of two channel. 
     

    I think once people read the article I’m working on for next week, they see that it’s all good (subjectively and objectively). 

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    13 hours ago, DigiPete said:
    1. IMO, going MCH / Immersive has a much higher impact to the experience than any audiophile tinkering and perfecting your stereo system. 
      To put it bluntly: A cheap MCH system (with a good MCH recording) easily out performs a vastly more expensive stereo system of the same recording.

     

    My experiences has been completely the opposite - all MCH that I've heard immediately brings the word "gimmicky" to mind - it's too obvious what's being done, and detracts from a truly subjective immersion in the music - I lose interest. OTOH, correct optimisation of a stereo setup allows realistic volumes to be generated in the listening space - you are in a normal, real life situation where you listen to music being performed in front of you; rather than around you.

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    1 minute ago, fas42 said:

     

    My experiences has been completely the opposite - all MCH that I've heard immediately brings the word "gimmicky" to mind - it's too obvious what's being done, and detracts from a truly subjective immersion in the music - I lose interest. OTOH, correct optimisation of a stereo setup allows realistic volumes to be generated in the listening space - you are in a normal, real life situation where you listen to music being performed in front of you; rather than around you.

     

     

    What can be done with discrete multichannel / immersive audio systems just can't be done with two channels. Period.

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    1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

     

     

    What can be done with discrete multichannel / immersive audio systems just can't be done with two channels. Period.

     

    Yes, as already agreed upon. But if one wants to experience immersive listening with the millions of recordings out there, the waiting for some company to process them all, for best MCH, might be a bit lengthy, :).

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    On 6/21/2022 at 10:08 AM, The Computer Audiophile said:

    I was a big skeptic of immersive audio at first.

    Was it just 2 channel preservation or were additional reasons in play as to why you were skeptical?

     

    If momentum continues, I predict many high end component manufacturers will release accommodating products extremely quickly; a lot of money to be made. 

     

    White glove processing, which you mentioned suffers from an immense backlog, will produce fantastic content but I am, at this point, skeptical about the on-the-fly processing for high quality home installation playback.

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    10 hours ago, fas42 said:

     

    My experiences has been completely the opposite - all MCH that I've heard immediately brings the word "gimmicky" to mind - it's too obvious what's being done, and detracts from a truly subjective immersion in the music - I lose interest. OTOH, correct optimisation of a stereo setup allows realistic volumes to be generated in the listening space - you are in a normal, real life situation where you listen to music being performed in front of you; rather than around you.


    I fully understand and empathise with your experience.
    Many if not most surround music releases of the past has been a hit and miss for the right use of the surround channels.
    This is why I always recommend people to try out the never failing releases from 2L!
    Please check the youtube of Morten Lindberg linked by both Chris and I.
    Morten exclusively records using a simple MCH microphone tree - "documenting" the experience in the optimal listening spot.
    This is as pure surround / Immersive as it gets.

    And while I have been jumping up and down like a freak here, to promote surround for the last decade, I admit that 90% of my listening is in stereo. 
    Knowing that would be the case, I set up my rig to equally cover both stereo and surround.
    I chose Genelec's 8260 with their co-axial drivers for optimum stereo imaging for my fronts.
    An expensive choice of the time, fortunately these days Genelec makes smaller and more affordable co-ax monitors.

    Summary:
    Will a dedicated surround or immersive rig be worth it for most audiophiles - Not Yet
    Can my stereo be a part of the surround or immersive rig with a little care - YES
    Will all surround / Immersive recordings be magically better - NO
    Can a less expensive consumer level system still convey the experience and emotions - Yes
    Can well recorded surround / Immersive experiences blow my mind - Abso-f***ing-lutely

    What ever you do - enjoy the music that speaks to your emotions 😉
    Peace 

     

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    9 minutes ago, ShawnC said:

    If your a RUSH fan, their releasing a big box set of Moving Pictures, with a Dolby Atoms version on Blu-ray.

     

    Here's a good article on the release and a bit about what went into the recording of that album.

     

    https://www.soundandvision.com/content/moving-pictures-rushs-1981-masterpiece-gets-its-due-atmos

    I’ve listened to the Atmos version of Tom Sawyer on Apple Music. It’s really cool. I just wish the Blu-ray was available without purchasing the $300 box set with toy car etc…

     

    https://store.acousticsounds.com/d/168122/Rush-Moving_Pictures-Multi-Format_Box_Sets

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    1 minute ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

    I’ve listened to the Atmos version of Tom Sawyer on Apple Music. It’s really cool. I just wish the Blu-ray was available without purchasing the $300 box set with toy car etc…

     

    https://store.acousticsounds.com/d/168122/Rush-Moving_Pictures-Multi-Format_Box_Sets

    I couldn't agree more.  Hopefully the Atmos Version will be available somewhere in the future. 

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    New music releases come out on Fridays. I’m usually interested to see what’s new. Now that I have an immersive system, I’m so excited for Fridays. Not only hearing new music, but hearing both the stereo and Atmos mixes are so much fun. I look up who the mix engineers are, much more than mastering engineers, and I can’t wait to listen. 
     

    For example, I just dropped my daughter off at day camp. The entire one hour drive (30 min each way), I listened to the new Jack Johnson album, Meet the Moonlight. In the car it was stereo, but the whole car ride I was imagining what it was going to sound like in Atmos. 
     

    It’s fun to be this excited about music and listening. 
     

    The new album is fantastic. The Atmos mix is done very well. I’m listening now and will likely be listening for a while :~)

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    On 6/23/2022 at 2:51 AM, The Computer Audiophile said:

     

     

    What can be done with discrete multichannel / immersive audio systems just can't be done with two channels. Period.

    I dont agree completly. I had the chance to listen in Munich to

     

    https://www.theoretica.us/bacch-dsp/

     

    and this was amazing what is coming out of "Stereospeakers". It was funny to look at the visitors which are having a look behind the speakers to search for surround speakers. One drawback was that you have to sit in the sweetspot or behind. So if somebody dont have the space to install a 7.1.4 or more system it is imho a alternative possibility. 

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    6 minutes ago, Me2 said:

    I dont agree completly. I had the chance to listen in Munich to

     

    https://www.theoretica.us/bacch-dsp/

     

    and this was amazing what is coming out of "Stereospeakers". It was funny to look at the visitors which are having a look behind the speakers to search for surround speakers. One drawback was that you have to sit in the sweetspot or behind. So if somebody dont have the space to install a 7.1.4 or more system it is imho a alternative possibility. 

    I sat through the same demo, calibrated to me, and really enjoyed it. This is certainly one way to get different sound, but it has nothing to do with reproducing what’s on the recording as accurately as possible. Nothing wrong with it, it just offers a presentation that’s quite different from any original. 

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    On 6/21/2022 at 6:07 PM, HVAC said:

    If you haven’t already. Give “Lost Voices of Hagia Sophia” a listen. Acoustic recreation of sound in Hagia Sophia church now mosque in Turkey. HS built in 500AD if I remember correctly. Huge acoustic space chosen by sound engineers at Stanford to recreate electronically using psychoacoustic software. So this music hasn’t been heard in 2000+ years.  Even if you don’t like sacred music I’m sure you will agree this one is special. Available on Spotify and others. 
    If you know anyone else interested, and I think most with nice equipment can present the space accurately, pass it on. 


    I’m listening to the lossless TrueHD Atmos version of this now. Really cool. Not my favorite “music” but it’s cool. 

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    2 hours ago, Me2 said:

    I dont agree completly. I had the chance to listen in Munich to

     

    https://www.princeton.edu/3D3A/PureStereo/Pure_Stereose2.html

     

    and this was amazing what is coming out of "Stereospeakers". It was funny to look at the visitors which are having a look behind the speakers to search for surround speakers. One drawback was that you have to sit in the sweetspot or behind. So if somebody dont have the space to install a 7.1.4 or more system it is imho a alternative possibility. 

     

    I've been disappointed that this seems to have gone nowhere commercially after glowing write ups a couple of years ago.  Not sure if it's inept marketing or just something that does not work all that well or easily.  Any intel here?

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    13 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

    I sat through the same demo, calibrated to me, and really enjoyed it. This is certainly one way to get different sound, but it has nothing to do with reproducing what’s on the recording as accurately as possible. Nothing wrong with it, it just offers a presentation that’s quite different from any original. 

    Then we should talk about high fidelity. I am convinced that immersive reproduction is the right way. Now the question is how to get there and I am convinced that Auro-3d is one of the best ways. From the beginning, this method was intended for music reproduction and, in contrast, Atmos was developed for cinema. I am deliberately talking about music that was captured with the appropriate setup of microphones. My goal is to be able to reproduce spaces such as a concert hall, outdoor performances, etc. at home as realistically as possible. The demo transmissions of the Japanese WOWOW channel were an aha experience. As soon as I'm done with the installation at home I'll also buy a subscription to the Berlin Philharmonic again.

    Still to the remark about the Baach system. We rarely know the original recordings, let alone the acoustics. In studio recordings, the room sound is artificially added and may not correspond to reality. There is a recording of Joe Jackson, Body and Soul, which was appropriately recorded in the Grand Hall of the Masonic Hall. Certainly the details of the recording are not consistent, but it was a good try.


     

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    Smyth Research A16 Realiser . . .

    So I have been looking for the most cost efficient and broad way to "be allowed" to stream Atmos content.
    Man, why isn't it just easy???
    I suppose it is, if you buy a standard Atmos certified reciever and just live with the sub-par sound quality.
    I just can't get myself to do that!

    The Smyth A16 seems to be the "cheapest box" I can find ($4k 😱).
    A 16 channel EAS/EBU version exists, and it has e-arc and decodes Dolby Atmos, DTS:X and Auro 3D.

    Questions:

    1. Am I missing something???
    2. Do you have any experience with the A16?
    3. Have you found a cheaper option for a minimum 12 channel Atmos solution that will trigger, say Tidal, to deliver Atmos?


    I run AES driven monitors, but this "magic box" I'm looking for should equally benefit anyone who prefers to choose their own dac's.
    Thanks

     

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    43 minutes ago, DigiPete said:

    Smyth Research A16 Realiser . . .

    So I have been looking for the most cost efficient and broad way to "be allowed" to stream Atmos content.
    Man, why isn't it just easy???
    I suppose it is, if you buy a standard Atmos certified reciever and just live with the sub-par sound quality.
    I just can't get myself to do that!

    The Smyth A16 seems to be the "cheapest box" I can find ($4k 😱).
    A 16 channel EAS/EBU version exists, and it has e-arc and decodes Dolby Atmos, DTS:X and Auro 3D.

    Questions:

    1. Am I missing something???
    2. Do you have any experience with the A16?
    3. Have you found a cheaper option for a minimum 12 channel Atmos solution that will trigger, say Tidal, to deliver Atmos?


    I run AES driven monitors, but this "magic box" I'm looking for should equally benefit anyone who prefers to choose their own dac's.
    Thanks

     

    This is the magic box you need. 
     

    https://www.arvus.com/atmos-h2-4d.html

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    9 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

    This is the magic box you need. 
     

    https://www.arvus.com/atmos-h2-4d.html


    Thanks Chris for reminding me.

    I remember seeing the Arvus earlier, but it was always an "elusive" box.
    Same pricing of $4-5k mentioned around but not on their homepage, pre-ordering and none for sale.
    I suppose this is the price we pay for being a small subset of a subset of audiophiles (also a small subset).
    Now, what bullet to bite???


     

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    2 minutes ago, DigiPete said:


    Thanks Chris for reminding me.

    I remember seeing the Arvus earlier, but it was always an "elusive" box.
    Same pricing of $4-5k mentioned around but not on their homepage, pre-ordering and none for sale.
    I suppose this is the price we pay for being a small subset of a subset of audiophiles (also a small subset).
    Now, what bullet to bite???


     

    I hear you loud and clear :~)

     

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    11 hours ago, DigiPete said:


    Thanks Chris for reminding me.

    I remember seeing the Arvus earlier, but it was always an "elusive" box.
    Same pricing of $4-5k mentioned around but not on their homepage, pre-ordering and none for sale.
    I suppose this is the price we pay for being a small subset of a subset of audiophiles (also a small subset).
    Now, what bullet to bite???


     

    Hi @DigiPete, I was thinking about this more today. I know, that’s what I do. Eat, sleep, and breathe this stuff. The issue with the Arvus going AES out is the lack of DSP if the source is something like an Apple TV. Apple TV > Arvus > AES > speakers, leaves no place for room correction. 
     

    On the other hand, using the Arvus Ravenna outputs, the signal can be sent to a computer running convolution, then sent back out via Ravenna. If your speakers had Tavenna input, all would be right :~)

     

    Also, if your speakers had Ravenna input, you could use a Mac with Apple Music and convolution, to send right to them. No Arvus needed. 

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