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    The Computer Audiophile

    A Conversation About Network Audio, AES67, Ravenna, and Merging Technologies

    At the Munich High End show this year, I talked to Merging Technologies' Dominique Brulhart about network audio, AES67, Ravenna, and many other items. Needless to say, I learned quite a bit and was really impressed by what is happening in this area of HiFi. After our conversation I asked Dominique if he would be willing to help educate the CA Community on all of this stuff. Dom was 100% on-board and agreed that we didn't even have to discuss Merging Technologies products, as long as we could educate the community. 

     

    Thus, last week I (virtually) sat down with Dominique via Skype and we talked about all things network audio. I couldn't resist asking some questions about the new Merging Technologies ZMan module and a few other items that I thought were too cool to pass up. 

     

     

    Here is the recording of our conversation.

     

    Links:

    AES67

    Ravenna

    Merging Technologies
     

     

     

     




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    1 hour ago, Sloop John B said:

    Just like to thank Chris @The Computer Audiophile and Don @dbrulhart for the great interview. Hopefully this is a format you can use more Chris as it's great to hear directly from the enthusiast innovators and manufacturers. 

     

    Dom, the zman and Raveena really seem to have the capacity to be a game changer in this arena. Certainly my next DAC and speaker purchases may we'll be different (and delayed) after having listened. I was particularly impressed the way you didn't rubbish DNLA, I'm always wary of people who feel they need to put down competitors in order to glorify their own product. 

     

    .sjb

     

    Agreed about putting down competitors although a bit of stiff competition tends to push along innovation.

     

    Perhaps dbrulhart will open up a Raveena thread in the vendor section now?

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    8 hours ago, Em2016 said:

     

    Hi, I tried to look at page 100 here but I can't find the list of components that make up this epitome hybrid LAN chain :-(

     

    I did not find it on page 100 either but it seems to be on pg 99. 

     

    RB2013. Once you fire up your USB thread here if you could post a few pics and perhaps a diagram for us visual learners it would be appreciated!

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    3 minutes ago, mourip said:

     

    Agreed about putting down competitors although a bit of healthy competition does tend to push along innovation :-)

     

    Perhaps now that dbrulhart has firmly identified himself as a manufacturer now he will now open up a Ravenna/Merging Tech thread in the vendor section and keep us updated on developments? That would be great...

     

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    On 7/1/2017 at 11:12 PM, rb2013 said:

     

    'Epitome' Hybrid USB/Ethernet GB LAN chain (see post on the prior page and page 100) 500 - YES it's that good! :mrgreen: 
    'Ultra' Hybrid USB/Ethernet GB LAN chain (details to long to list) 370
     

     

    Not to derail this thread, but I'd love to know the specific products these are (manufacturer and product number/name). I tried to read the thread, but I could not find the direct path to the pages stating what these products are.

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    4 hours ago, rgom said:

    By the way, I am also on the AOIP bandwagon and currently running a Rednet 3, LiveClock and Mutec MC3+ USB all modified with LPS's and I agree with those folks on HeadFi that it was a major leap in SQ. The best that I'm hearing from computer audio ever.

    Sometime next week will be receiving a Stanford Research PERF10 Rubidium clock with the optional 12VDC input so it can also benefit from the use of an external LPS.

     

    CA is a little late with this network audio thing since it was all explored and pioneered on Head-fi last year, Thanks no less to you rb2013 and a few daring folks who experimented on it over there.

    Thanks for the kudos - My thanks to Mhamel who first posted about the ICRON/Startech (he was the fellow who idenified the OEM maker of the LanRover) and Mike's bringing the Focusrite gear to our attention.  That prompted me to start the thread after getting a Rednet 3 to try out.  That began our explorations and trials.

     

    You know at first the great attraction was a 'one box' solution vs USB.  But as time went on the 'one' box became two (Mutec MC-3+ USB as AES/SPDIF reclocker), then three (OCX Wclocks), now I see four with the SR PERF10 Rubidum Atomic clock to discipline the OCX WClock),  and then having to mod the Rednet and Mutec to remove the built in SMPS and power externally.  Well the madness returns in spades! LOL!  At least with USB it's plug and play for the most part.  And with a PERF10 ($3500), now we are talking $6000 just as a PC to DAC solution - before mods and LPS's another $1000 at least.

     

    Not saying that that kind of AOIP (Dante) chain doesn't sound as good or better then the 'Epitome' Chain.  I imagine it would.  How much better?  From my long journey the SQ I'm hearing now is the best in 30yrs+ of audio - by a long stretch.  Blowing away my old near sota analog rig.  And from lowly Redbook 16/44.1 files! No need for DSD, SACD, Hi Res PCM.  Right there a huge saving in acquiring music.  My deep collection all sounding new and alive - like never before.  Last night for example - Led Zepplin 'Presence' was the best I've ever heard it - with new details emerging and really a fresh and exciting way the presentation unfolded. I've heard this album 1000's of times and never really thought it particularly well recorded - Wow! That was put to rest last night.  Recorded in 1976 - 41yrs ago.  And it just goes on and on night after night rediscovering my old favorites and new stuff.

     

    I guess the bottom line is there are a few paths to this level of audio reproduction and I'm agnostic to which gets you there: Analog, AOIP, USB, USB/Ethernet, TB3,etc...  For me it's about getting 'there' for the least cost..

     

    Cheer!

     

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    11 hours ago, Em2016 said:

     

    Hi, I tried to look at page 100 here but I can't find the list of components that make up this epitome hybrid LAN chain :-(

     

    https://www.usaudiomart.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1172&start=1485

     

    Can you direct me to the page that lists all the components of this chain or copy and paste here?

     

    Many thanks in advance

     

    I will have to find the proper page number - anyway here it is in a nutshell:

     

    PC(WIN10 on ext SSD powered by LT3045/LPS)>JB(modded to VBUS blocker)>LH Labs 2G (data leg to JB/PC - power to LT3045)>LEX(powered by LT3045/LPS)>BJC CAT6a>REX(powered by LPS)>JB(modded to VBUS blocker)>2G(data leg only)>RuR(powered by LT3045/LPS)>iDefender>iPur2>F-1.

     

    Important: Music files played from SLC mSD card (USB 3.0 adapter) in the REX or 256GB USB sticks.

     

    That's it. I have another 20VDC LT3045 coming to use on the REX.  Hopefully a bit of a step up.

    Other possible improvements ISO Regen in lieu of the RuR.  Matrix SPDIF-2 in lieu of the F-1.

     

    PS I should note this chain was not put together randomly - but painstakingly assembled after many months of listening experiments with different devices and configurations.  I counted over 50 different chain configurations and power supply configurations.  More then a few devices were sold or sent back to the retailer - like the iSilencer, etc...

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    2 hours ago, mourip said:

     

    I did not find it on page 100 either but it seems to be on pg 99. 

     

    RB2013. Once you fire up your USB thread here if you could post a few pics and perhaps a diagram for us visual learners it would be appreciated!

    Yes I sure will - I'm working a few last tweeks - should have it up this weekend.

    Cheers

    1 hour ago, 4est said:

     

    Not to derail this thread, but I'd love to know the specific products these are (manufacturer and product number/name). I tried to read the thread, but I could not find the direct path to the pages stating what these products are.

    No worries I'll add details on the new 'Epitome' USB/Ethernet hybrid thread.  I'll try to keep it succinct and consolidate a lot of the new information.

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    13 minutes ago, rb2013 said:

     

    Yes I sure will - I'm working a few last tweeks - should have it up this weekend.

    Cheers

    No worries I'll add details on the new 'Epitome' USB/Ethernet hybrid thread.  I'll try to keep it succinct and consolidate a lot of the new information.

    TY!

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    29 minutes ago, rb2013 said:

    .....Other possible improvements ISO Regen in lieu of the RuR.  Matrix SPDIF-2 in lieu of the F-1.

    Great to see you bring your discoveries over here Rob. I'm sure I'm not the only one looking forward to seeing how the IR and Matrix fit in your chain. 

     

    Thanks! 

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    2 hours ago, tapatrick said:

    Great to see you bring your discoveries over here Rob. I'm sure I'm not the only one looking forward to seeing how the IR and Matrix fit in your chain. 

     

    Thanks! 

    Cheers!  This is going to be interesting.

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    On 7/3/2017 at 9:47 AM, rb2013 said:

    Cheers!  This is going to be interesting.

     

    It will indeed.

     

    Looking forward to seeing the Zman/Ravenna enabled products released by Melco and Aurender. 

    And the products and additional audio manufacturers who will follow them with additional Zman/Ravenna products.

     

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    1 hour ago, bmoura said:

     

    It will indeed.

     

    Looking forward to seeing the Zman/Ravenna enabled products released by Melco and Aurender. 

    And the products and additional audio manufacturers who will follow them with additional Zman/Ravenna products.

     

    My hope is to see some low cost AES67 DDC's in the future - whether with the DANTE std or the Ravenna std. There are a few other AES67 players - but mostly focused on the Stadium/PA market.  And there also is another path to AoIP - AVB.

     

    IEEE is working on a new iteration of AVB as well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_Video_Bridging

     

    There has already been much progress made:

    Quote

    IEEE 1733

    If an application uses the IETF Real-time Transport Protocol (RTP), it can use a new RTCP payload format defined in IEEE 1733[14] that correlates the RTP timestamp with the 802.1AS presentation time. The applications at the renderer(s) then use that correlation to translate the RTP timestamp to the presentation time stamp allowing the renderer(s) to start playing at the same time and keep playing at the same rate.

    This is where the low cost solutions may ultimately come from - due to the lower licensing costs.


    XMOS is working in this direction with AVnu:

    http://www.xmos.com/products/audio/networked

     

    has a board out xCore-200

    http://www.xmos.com/products/audio/networked/solutions

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    1 hour ago, rb2013 said:

    My hope is to see some low cost AES67 DDC's in the future - whether with the DANTE std or the Ravenna std.

    Agree,

    but considering the prices for NADAC I suspect that solutions with ZMAN will be expensive.

     

    Matt

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    Keep in mind that standard AES67 devices likely won't cover the sample rates people want. That's where Ravenna devices like the NADAC and ZMan come into play. 

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    11 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

    Keep in mind that standard AES67 devices likely won't cover the sample rates people want. That's where Ravenna devices like the NADAC and ZMan come into play. 

    AFAIK,

    the ZMAN is able to do DSD256 "only" and the NADAC besides its Ravenna functionality is nothing special.

     

    Matt

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    Just now, matthias said:

    AFAIK,

    the ZMAN is able to do DSD256 "only" and the NADAC besides its Ravenna functionality is nothing special.

     

    Matt

     

    Not quite sure I follow you. Ravenna is far better than standard AES67. 

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    12 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

     

    Not quite sure I follow you. Ravenna is far better than standard AES67. 

    What I want to say is that with the NADAC you pay a premium for Ravenna only, not for the DAC.

    Ravanna does both DSD and PCM , Dante PCM only.

    But I suspect that the Ravenna ZMAN is much more expensive than the Dante Brooklyn.

     

     

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    6 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

    Ah ok. You don't like the DAC?

    I think the same about it as @rb2013.

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    How would a Ravenna interface with ZMAN which is not in the same box as the DAC connect to a separate DAC?

    Via I2S?

     

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    1 minute ago, matthias said:

    How would a Ravenna interface with ZMAN which is not in the same box as the DAC connect to a separate DAC?

    Via I2S?

     

     

    There aren't any limitations. Via i2s, USB, AES, spdif etc...

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    20 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

     

    There aren't any limitations. Via i2s, USB, AES, spdif etc...

    Some sort of "Ravenna-microRendu", Ethernet in, USB out:-)

    Would be nice if they offer a Ravenna box in the price range of the ultraRendu,

    much better than an integrated solution of a Ravenna Interface inside a DAC.

    So it is much more transparent what you have to pay for the interface per se and you are not limited to a certain manufacturer for your DAC.

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    7 minutes ago, matthias said:

    Some sort of "Ravenna-microRendu", Ethernet in, USB out:-)

    100% possible. 

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    AFAIK, for a Ravenna solution I need:

    1.) Computer with Ravenna VSC and Ethernet out

    2.) Ravenna Interface box with ZMan as daughterboard and output to a DAC or Ravenna-DAC like NADAC.

    Right?

     

    Matt

     

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