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    New Schiit Yggdrasil Blind Listening Comparison

     

     

    The very first sentence on the Schiit Audio Yggdrasil web page says, "Forget everything you know about DACs." I concur in the most unequivocal way possible.  

     

    Members of the Audiophile Style community are well aware that I absolutely love the Schiit Audio Yggdrasil DAC. I reviewed it back in November 2015 and said, "The Yggdrasil has a rare ability to reproduce acoustic music on a level with some of the best DACs I've heard." Of course the Yggy can faithfully reproduce electric music as well, else I wouldn't place it on the same level as DACs costing 5x and 10x its price. 


    Two weeks ago I received an email from Schiit with a hint that something was up with the Yggdrasil. A phone call was requested. We connected via telephone a couple days later and my trip to Schiit Audio's Newhall, CA retail location, dubbed The Schiitr, was set in motion. I was thrilled to receive an invite to participate in a double blind listening session involving three versions of the flagship Yggdrasil DAC. If anyone was in doubt about how much I love my job, please put that to rest now. As a 14 year old I biked four miles to the local country club, so I could carry someone's heavy golf bag around the course for four hours in 95 degree weather for $15 (including generous tip). I've also worked for Fortune 500 companies where we often spoke of management as the blind leading the sighted. I understand less than desirable jobs. My job now isn't one of them :~) 

     

     


    The DAC Details

     

    Last week I flew to The Schiitr to participate in a double blind listening session of the three Yggdrasil DACs. Before getting into all the specifics of the listening session, let's cut right to the first part of the chase and let Schiit Audio describe the three models. 


    Yggdrasil Less Is More. Uses four (yes, 4) TI DAC8812 stereo 16-bit DACs and integrated differential amplification afterwards. Because it’s 16 bits, and because the DACs cost less than the other options, it is less expensive than any other version. It also measures a bit better than the Yggdrasil OG (!) despite being down 4 bits. This is the wonder and magic of dither. $2199
     
    Yggdrasil More is Less. Middle priced. Uses four TI DAC11001 20-bit DACs and integrated differential amplification afterwards. These new DACs really push the limits of measured multibit performance. Although they are true 20-bit multibit architecture DACs, their integrated sample-and-hold provides measured performance near the top of today’s DACs. $2349
     
    Yggdrasil OG. Also known as ... Yggdrasil Analog 2. Uses four Analog Devices 20-bit DACs and discrete analog buffering and summing afterwards. The only discrete Yggdrasil model, and the one that everyone has known and loved for the past few years. $2599

     

     

    You read that right, if you actually read it at all. I know skimming for bold typeface and headlines is popular, but the descriptions above  shouldn't be missed. What company releases new versions of its flagship product at lower prices? The same company that launched a retail store on April fools day. The new Schiit Yggdrasil DACs are cheaper than the original Yggdrasil, and all three models will be available for purchase. 

     

    This is the most consumer centric move in HiFi in recent memory. Schiit Audio developed new DACs for less money and will offer both new DACs and the original DAC to consumers. The company didn't decide which one consumers should like, or release only a more expensive model and say it's the best DAC Schiit knows how to make. Although I would've laughed if Schiit created a video and said, we started over, from a clean slate, to create the best Yggdrasil ever, and said it in a Jony Ive voice. 

     


    The Setup

     

    The listening sessions were in the main two channel listening room at The Schiitr. I asked for RAAL-requisite SR1a headphones as well, and Schiit happy obliged, given its Jotunheim R was the first direct drive amp capable of powering these headphones. Everything was setup before I arrived, so I neither saw anything nor heard anything that would make the listening not so blind. 

     

    MacMiniUSB3.jpgThe audio chain consisted of a Mac Mini running Roon, with individual USB cables connected to the three Yggdrasils, interconnects from the Yggdrasils to an XLR switch box, one pair of interconnects from the XLR switch box to the Schiit Ragnarok amplifier, and speaker cables out to Magnepan LRS speakers. The analog interconnects from the Yggdrasil DACs ran through a custom built tube that made it impossible to follow the cables from the DACs to the switch box, just incase someone wanted to accept that fools errand. The Yggdrasils had no differentiating SMT, or soft biometrics such as scars, marks, or tattoos as they say in the crime fighting world. In other words, nobody had any idea which Yggdrasil was which, or if the three were even different. 

     

    Identifying the DACs required looking at the serial numbers on the back and running that through a double secret decoder ring to which nobody had access. After all the listening was done, Schiit had to jump through some hoops to identify each DAC. 

     

    Yggdrasil XLR Switch.jpgThe XLR switch box was labeled X, Y, and Z. One letter for each Yggdrasil is what I assumed, but I guess Schiit could've messed with me and had a single unit go to all three letters or something similar. Fortunately that wasn't the case. 

     

    Changing the audio from one Yggy to another involved walking up to the switch box and turning the dial. It was simple. If someone else turned the dial for the listener, that someone else also had no clue which DAC was playing either. At the end, we fund out that X, Y, and Z didn't even correspond to the placement of the DACs on the ground. X wasn't on the left and Z wasn't on the right. 


    Note: Other speakers from Salk Sound were used as well, but given there are 23 models of Salk floor standing speakers and I didn't take a photo of them, I'll have to follow up with the specific model number. 

     

     

    The Ask

     

    Tell us what you think. That's it. That's all Schiit said. Of course, it was fun to take things even further by trying to identify each DAC based on what I knew about the models, but Schiit never put such a requirement forward. There was no pressure to identify the best measuring DAC by ear or anything similar. It was about relaxing, or I guess jumping up and down going ape Schiit if one wanted to, listening to whatever music one wanted, and giving an opinion. There were no wrong answers.

     

     

     

     

    New Yggdrasil Listening Blind System.jpg

     

     


    The Listening

     

    At about 11:30AM Schiit turned over the listening room to us and said have at it. We could all listen together, individually, or any which way we desired. Listening with others, and being not quite in the perfect center spot can be a little challenging, but I listened to several tracks this way and to good results. After a while I stepped out, but went back in the room when I could listen by myself.

     

    I took 7.1 pages of notes with an ink pen on a legal pad. I say 7.1 because the last page says SAME THING diagonally across the entire page in large letters. At the end of the session, the more I listened, the more I heard the exact same differences that I heard in the first 30 seconds. The DACs didn't sound the same, but I wasn't going to find anything new by listening longer and taking another page of notes. In total, I probably spent 2.5 hours listening. I brought a USB stick with plenty of Japanese jazz from the Three Blind Mice record label, among other albums including folk, classical, and rock. 

     

    My notes consist of labels X, Y, and Z, with a specific track name above the letters. I played a track, then switched between X, Y, and Z as I listened. Sometimes I started the track over each time I switch to a different DAC. I wanted to give each DAC a shot at reproducing the exact same music. 

     

    Let's cut to the final chase scene before going over the nuances of listening to each DAC. By far, my favorite version is Yggdrasil Less Is More. That's right, the least expensive model, with the least number of bits (16 bit DAC chips, 17 bits total), sounded the best. It wasn't even close. The second place DAC was Yggdrasil OG, the original Yggy that I've listened to for years in my system. My least favorite DAC was Yggdrasil More is Less. You read that right, the best measuring multi bit DAC ever, sounded the worst to me. This conclusion wasn't a close call. 


    My preference 

    1. Yggdrasil Less Is More ($2,199)
    2. Yggdrasil OG ($2,599)
    3. Yggdrasil More is Less ($2,349)

     

    My notes about each DAC range from high praise to describing one as a "jumbled mess." Here are some specifics about what I listened to and what I heard. 


    My top pick, Yggdrasil Less Is More, was better in every sense of the word. Listening to Jack Johnson's track Flake (16 bit / 48 kHz remaster by Bernie Grundman), the steel drum was really clear at low volume and had great separation between mallet strikes. The Yggdrasil OG was also good, but not as good. Through Yggdrasil More is Less, cymbals sounded harsh, and drums sounded as if they were recorded in a box. Keep in mind that this is all relative. Each DAC in isolation is probably fantastic. But, compared to each other with the flick of a switch, these differences are very easy to spot and stick out like a sore thumb. 

     

    Listening to Midnight Sugar by the Tsuyoshi Yamamoto Trio game me more of the same information about each DAC. 

     

    Yggdrasil Less Is More ($2,199) - The sound was 100% appropriate, in that it can be sharp or mellow and everything in between. This DAC didn't editorialize. When the piano started on this track, I leaned back and said "Yes." The sound put me at ease, relaxed me, and was absolutely right. The DAC has great bass extension with articulation and solidity. The piano hammer strikes at roughly 2:20 into the track sounded fantastic. It's hard to want more from a DAC than this Yggy can give. 

     

    Yggdrasil OG ($2,599) - The original Yggdrasil was good on this track, but not at the same level as the Less is More DAC. Bass was a touch boomy, but not loose. I heard the slightest touch of a synthetic sound in the mid to low frequencies of the piano compared to my favorite version of the Yggy. None of this is audible when listening in isolation and I've never heard this on my own system. But, under direct comparison, it was there for one's ears to hear. 

     

    Yggdrasil More is Less ($2,349) - OK, I'll say it, what a disappointment for me. I hear blur in the midrange, extra crispy high frequencies, and harsh hammer strikes. Despite this DAC's measurement bonafides, I'm not a fan of its sound. It offered no redeeming qualities for me. This wasn't the case for others listening, but at this level of performance it's really about taste. 


    Listening to Shelby Lynne's track Like a Fool provided more of the same information.

    Yggdrasil Less Is More ($2,199) - The acoustic guitar was natural, sounded great, and real. Everything on this track sounded right. 


    Yggdrasil OG ($2,599) - Shelby's vocal was good and the drums had good air / space around them. One thing I noticed with this track through the Yggy OG was it sounded a bit slow. That's a tough one to articulate better, but it just lacked the pace I expected. 


    Yggdrasil More is Less ($2,349) - The measuring champ sounded "better on this track than the other tracks," according to my notes, but one key aspect that I noted was a lack of balance. Instruments seemed to pop out unnaturally as if I was listening to the sonic equivalent of an HDR photo that may be neat at first but nothin like the real event it was supposed to document. 


    Putting some classical through the Yggdrasils was no different. This is where I wrote "jumbled mess" for the Yggdrasil More is Less ($2,349). It just sounded congested to me, as if the details were lost. I could hear everything through Yggdrasil Less Is More ($2,199), and in typical Yggy OG fashion I heard tons string texture through this DAC. Keep in mind that I had no cue which DAC was which while listening and taking these notes. 

    The conversation

     

    After listening for 2.5 hours, some of us, including those who designed the DACs, sat around and chatted about what we heard. Opinions were already written in permanent ink, so there was no hedging on what we heard. This is where I took a guess trying to identify each DAC as X, Y, or Z. I knew the sound of Yggdrasil OG and wrote that it absolutely had to be DAC Z. Fortunately I was right, when all was revealed. 

     

    What I mixed up was identifying the new Yggdrasil DACs. After so many years of having measurements beat into my head, I assumed the DAC I absolutely loved would be the best measuring Yggy and the DAC that was a "jumbled mess" to me, would be the least expensive 17 bit Yggy.  When it was revealed that the $2,199 Yggdrasil Less is More was easily my favorite DAC, my mind was a bit blown. How could this be? It's "only" 17 bits? It measures better than the original Yggy, but not as good as the the more expensive Yggdrasil More is Less. 

     

    These question lead to a wonderful discussion with Mike Moffat and Jason Stoddard as we sat around The Schiitr. I walked away from this experience more disillusioned with traditional measurements than I've ever been. Yes, measurements are great when designing products, but they are one data point among many others. Each of these three Yggdrasil DACs measures really good, but one is the best measuring multi bit DAC ever made. What does that even mean beyond the fact that it's the best measuring multi bit DAC ever made? In my opinion, it means nothing beyond the statement alone. 

     

     

    The Conclusion

     

    The double blind listening session at The Schiitr and the discussion that followed with Mike and Jason of Schiit, was an absolute blast. I'm sure there's a Ph.D. of double blind tests reading this shaking his head, but I really don't care. I reached my conclusions without identifying the hardware to which I was listening. My conclusions, especially the part about the DAC that made me sit back in the chair and feel at ease, were nearly identical with someone else who knows a thing or two about each of the DACs. When he described this immediate relaxed feeling to me, I looked at my notes and my eyes got as large as dinner plates. It's like he was reading my notes, even though he was too busy talking outside the room during the entire time I was listening and writing. 

     

    I applaud Schiit Audio for creating two new Yggdrasil DACs that are less expensive than the original, and offering all three for purchase. Options are always a good thing, and spending less money for more is as well. I've requested the $2,199 Yggdrasil Less is More for review because it was clearly the best sounding DAC at The Schiitr that day. My words may seem like objective statements of fact, but in reality being the "best sounding" can only be subjective. I'm sure others will find much more enjoyment in one or both of the other Yggdrasils, but that's the beauty of having options. At this level of performance, it really is about personal preference. 

     

     

     

    Product Details:

    Schiit Audio Yggdrasil Less is More $2,199

    Schiit Audio Yggdrasil More is Less $2,349

    Schiit Audio Yggdrasil OG $2,599

     

    Yggdrasil Product Page (link)




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    Also, to clarify @matthias’ post about Urd, it is purported to improve on Unison by providing a custom-designed Unison USB output to match any Unison-outfitted DAC’s input. Urd will be a CD-based transport, but, at least according to a recent Q&A, will include a USB pass through for those who would like to try the Unison output sans CD. Mike at Schiit was pretty enthused (and surprised) by how much it improved USB playback vs. a motherboard port or what have you. The Unison output is also being tested with other manufacturers’ DACs’ USB inputs to ensure compatibility, so you could use it with a non-Schiit DAC as well.

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    5 hours ago, R1200CL said:

    It’s “interesting” that in your opinion or system Schiit hasn’t been able to make a proper USB interface. Hope I understand you correctly. 

     

    That may be a bit strong. I haven't done anything to optimize the USB input and my experience is limited. I haven't spent enough time with it to be definitive  so it is too early to come to that  strong of a conclusion.

     

     

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    23 hours ago, internethandle said:

    Still, there are quite a few folks who think that AES is the clearest and least colored input. One of these days I’ll get around to trying a Pi2AES with it, which a lot of people say compares favorably with solutions many times its price.

     

    My bias in audio has over the years increasingly leaned toward clean electricity. I use AES with Yggy and think it far superior to USB, but I am all Red Book so if you need USB for hi-res, you need USB. For AES, IME (bias) Pi2AES seems low cost until one adds "quality" power to the mix. That bumps it up into "may as well buy a _______" territory where you get quality power built in. 

    I don't have a good answer for this, for me. Currently using an older Auralic Aries streamer with its better LPS. I'd prefer to put an Uptone power supply on it but the voltage doesn't match, so now I'm into "might as well buy Aries G1 or higher" territory.

    But nonetheless, I think AES is much better and really find USB to be problematic. Still, if you get it sorted, you never need fuss with it again. 

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    On 9/22/2021 at 7:00 AM, rruffin said:

    Wondering what digital coax cable you are currently using and if you have done much experimenting?

     

    I'm no longer using coax for SPDIF, I now use AES, but...

     

    For cables, in my system, my room, I've tried several coax cables and really liked Oyaide DB-510 as an affordable cable. Then I borrowed a $900 Transparent Audio coax from the dealer. Wow, great cable. Then Silnote Audio (note: NOT "Siltech") put their line on sale at their website and so I took a flyer and was happily sold on their warmth and detail...and price. They're still on sale it seems, (small company, apparently).

     

    I now use Silnote Audio for my AES (and coax as well, from my CD player/transport). As an aside, a long time reviewer for TAS (Cordesman) says that in his experience, using all cables by the same company isn't likely to have cumulative effect. That has been my experience as well.

     

    To stay on topic I will end with my observation that AES into Yggy A2 beats the coax inputs and USB. Broadly speaking, there is more musical information, more soundstage size, and more musical engagement. It's worth switching to an AES source with quality power, IME.

     

    Hope this helps.

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    Comparing AES to Unison USB output will be very interesting when URD is released since this device offers both excellent USB and AES outputs.

     

    Matt

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    21 minutes ago, feelingears said:

     

    My bias in audio has over the years increasingly leaned toward clean electricity. I use AES with Yggy and think it far superior to USB, but I am all Red Book so if you need USB for hi-res, you need USB. For AES, IME (bias) Pi2AES seems "low cost" until one adds "quality" power to the mix. That bumps it up into "may as well buy a _______" territory where you get quality power built it. 

    I don't have a good answer for this, for me. Currently using an older Auralic Aries streamer with its better LPS. I'd prefer to put an Uptone power supply on it but the voltage doesn't match, so now I'm into "might as well buy Aries G1 or higher" territory.

    But nonetheless, I think AES is much better and really find USB to be problematic. Still, if you get it sorted, you never need fuss with it again. 

    Hey Looney,

     

    Look at the HDPlex https://hdplex.com/hdplex-fanless-300w-linear-power-supply-for-pc-audio-and-ce-device.html.   Multiple DC outputs two of which are adjustable voltages.   Mine powers my AudioByte Bridge and 12VDC for my MAC Mini that I have dedicated to Roon.   Just a thought! 

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    48 minutes ago, feelingears said:

    Currently using an older Auralic Aries streamer with its better LPS. I'd prefer to put an Uptone power supply on it but the voltage doesn't match

     

    I don't know what the Auralic requires but Uptone can adjust their high end supply to voltages other than those listed on their website

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    On 9/22/2021 at 10:57 AM, internethandle said:


    Yeah, to this point, Unison USB input is very responsive in my experience to putting reclocking/conditioning before it in the chain. I’m using a JCAT Femto USB V2 card with LT3045 regulated LPS -> SOtM tX-USBultra Special Edition with Paul Hynes SR4T -> Unison input on my Less Is More Yggy to very good effect. Also had a noticeable improvement on A2/OG before it.

     

    Still, there are quite a few folks who think that AES is the clearest and least colored input. One of these days I’ll get around to trying a Pi2AES with it, which a lot of people say compares favorably with solutions many times its price.

    Currently using Pi2AES -> AES -> LiM. Yeah, the Pi2AES is money very well spent.

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    The Pi2AES presents a tremendous price to performance ratio. I have had one for over a year and tried many OSes and configurations. I settled on GentooPlayer OS because it sounded better than Volumio and Moode at the time. 

     

    My first build surpassed it fairly early on in my journey but was much more costly to put together (at least 4x the price). This is with no network optimizations and a fairly decent for the price Audioquest Forest USB cable.

     

    I will revisit this test for those curious. I'll use my Schiit Pyst USB cable to compare to the standard Mogami AED cable I used with Pi2AES. I have a 5V LPS i can use with the Pi2AES now (diy MPAudio ALS-HPULN) but would need to build a cable that fits and search for the guide to getting it to work with 5V input (i only used the included smps).

     

    It has been a while since I conducted this test, but, I remember one major difference between the two sources. The fairly basic PC based build sounded bigger and had more authority. Pi2AES sounded very good as well but smaller and somewhat leaner. 

     

    I have since come a long way with my computer source. Go ahead, rip me to shreds 😁,just sharing my experience. Pi2AES is a tremendously good sounding low cost option that can and should be endgame for many!

     

    Edit: Forgot to mention this comparison is with the Yggdrasil A2/OG.

     

    Cheers,

    -Rob

    PXL_20210923_232046942.jpg

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    5 hours ago, Exocer said:

    The Pi2AES presents a tremendous price to performance ratio. I have had one for over a year and tried many OSes and configurations. I settled on GentooPlayer OS because it sounded better than Volumio and Moode at the time. 

     

    My first build surpassed it fairly early on in my journey but was much more costly to put together (at least 4x the price). This is with no network optimizations and a fairly decent for the price Audioquest Forest USB cable.

     

    I will revisit this test for those curious. I'll use my Schiit Pyst USB cable to compare to the standard Mogami AED cable I used with Pi2AES. I have a 5V LPS i can use with the Pi2AES now (diy MPAudio ALS-HPULN) but would need to build a cable that fits and search for the guide to getting it to work with 5V input (i only used the included smps).

     

    It has been a while since I conducted this test, but, I remember one major difference between the two sources. The fairly basic PC based build sounded bigger and had more authority. Pi2AES sounded very good as well but smaller and somewhat leaner. 

     

    I have since come a long way with my computer source. Go ahead, rip me to shreds 😁,just sharing my experience. Pi2AES is a tremendously good sounding low cost option that can and should be endgame for many!

     

    Edit: Forgot to mention this comparison is with the Yggdrasil A2/OG.

     

    There is another report here on AS where the new ifi Zen stream was preferred to the Pi2AES.

     

    Matt

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    On 9/24/2021 at 6:20 PM, matthias said:

    I just read on SBAF that Jason likes a lot the idea of a "Schiit x Soekris" collaboration.

    So maybe we see in due time an Yggdrasil with Soekris boards.......😃

    I think that would not be a bad decision at all.

     

    As Mike @baldrhas the final say in anything digital at Schiit he hopefully gives green light.......

     

    Matt

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    Why listen with a double blind '?
    it is scientifically proven that it is not a valid method.
    Hear what you want to hear without double blind.
    Listen calmly, listen again several times, without haste.

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    1 hour ago, Valter said:

    Why listen with a double blind '?
    it is scientifically proven that it is not a valid method.
    Hear what you want to hear without double blind.
    Listen calmly, listen again several times, without haste.


    Got a link to that science?

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    5 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

     


    Hear what you expect to hear, is more like it:

     

    https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/609045

     

    Or, Auditory Scene Analysis ... introduced by Bregman nearly 20 years ago, to describe how the brain attempts to make sense of what it hears - so 'adjusts' what comes in, so that it fits in with patterns of sound you're familiar with - and allows you to ignore sounds that "aren't important", at that moment. An example: the phone rings, and you just don't hear it, because your mind is concentrating on other sounds, right at that minute.

     

    Which works up to a point ... the brain has its limits - because we're human 😁 - and at some point the irritating, irrelevant sound element breaks through; and once it's there, in your consciousness, you can't get rid of it ... 😉.

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    41 minutes ago, fas42 said:

    An example: the phone rings, and you just don't hear it, because your mind is concentrating on other sounds, right at that minute.

     

    Depends on what you mean by "hear it,"  We have a grandfather clock that rings the hour and once on the half hour... I'm sure I "hear it" in the sense that my brain receives the input from my ears,  but my brain ignores it so I rarely "hear it" in the sense that I consciously register it.

     

    not really sure how that fits into this conversation but I like to participate 😉

     

     

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    18 minutes ago, bbosler said:

     

    Depends on what you mean by "hear it,"  We have a grandfather clock that rings the hour and once on the half hour... I'm sure I "hear it" in the sense that my brain receives the input from my ears,  but my brain ignores it so I rarely "hear it" in the sense that I consciously register it.

     

    not really sure how that fits into this conversation but I like to participate 😉

     

     

     

    It's about what makes listening to one DAC 'nicer' than another - they all produce distortion in a form which is measurable at some level; it has to be so, otherwise they would sound completely identical, would be impossible to pick them apart. Since they have 'character', which one is "best"? Well, to me, the one that allows the brain to focus on the positives of the recording, rather than the negatives, is the preferred - distortions which in an ideal world wouldn't be there are still in the sound space; but, I don't "hear them", 😉.

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    Since this thread hasn't had any activity for over a week I hope I am not out of line by mentioning I have one for sale at US Audio Mart ? They are back ordered 10 -12 weeks as of today.. Please delete this if I am out of bounds

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    On 9/22/2021 at 7:00 AM, rruffin said:

    Wondering what digital coax cable you are currently using and if you have done much experimenting?

     

    Sorry @rruffin, missed this somehow. I have experimented with several and to cut to the chase, I like Oyaide DB-510 (?) as the budget best. I also really like Transparent Audio coax and Silnote: I am currently using Silnote (n.b., not Siltech) Audio AES. Their cables have been on a huge discount for a long time now...Joe Bob says "check it out."

     

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