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    The Computer Audiophile

    New Schiit Yggdrasil Blind Listening Comparison

     

     

    The very first sentence on the Schiit Audio Yggdrasil web page says, "Forget everything you know about DACs." I concur in the most unequivocal way possible.  

     

    Members of the Audiophile Style community are well aware that I absolutely love the Schiit Audio Yggdrasil DAC. I reviewed it back in November 2015 and said, "The Yggdrasil has a rare ability to reproduce acoustic music on a level with some of the best DACs I've heard." Of course the Yggy can faithfully reproduce electric music as well, else I wouldn't place it on the same level as DACs costing 5x and 10x its price. 


    Two weeks ago I received an email from Schiit with a hint that something was up with the Yggdrasil. A phone call was requested. We connected via telephone a couple days later and my trip to Schiit Audio's Newhall, CA retail location, dubbed The Schiitr, was set in motion. I was thrilled to receive an invite to participate in a double blind listening session involving three versions of the flagship Yggdrasil DAC. If anyone was in doubt about how much I love my job, please put that to rest now. As a 14 year old I biked four miles to the local country club, so I could carry someone's heavy golf bag around the course for four hours in 95 degree weather for $15 (including generous tip). I've also worked for Fortune 500 companies where we often spoke of management as the blind leading the sighted. I understand less than desirable jobs. My job now isn't one of them :~) 

     

     


    The DAC Details

     

    Last week I flew to The Schiitr to participate in a double blind listening session of the three Yggdrasil DACs. Before getting into all the specifics of the listening session, let's cut right to the first part of the chase and let Schiit Audio describe the three models. 


    Yggdrasil Less Is More. Uses four (yes, 4) TI DAC8812 stereo 16-bit DACs and integrated differential amplification afterwards. Because it’s 16 bits, and because the DACs cost less than the other options, it is less expensive than any other version. It also measures a bit better than the Yggdrasil OG (!) despite being down 4 bits. This is the wonder and magic of dither. $2199
     
    Yggdrasil More is Less. Middle priced. Uses four TI DAC11001 20-bit DACs and integrated differential amplification afterwards. These new DACs really push the limits of measured multibit performance. Although they are true 20-bit multibit architecture DACs, their integrated sample-and-hold provides measured performance near the top of today’s DACs. $2349
     
    Yggdrasil OG. Also known as ... Yggdrasil Analog 2. Uses four Analog Devices 20-bit DACs and discrete analog buffering and summing afterwards. The only discrete Yggdrasil model, and the one that everyone has known and loved for the past few years. $2599

     

     

    You read that right, if you actually read it at all. I know skimming for bold typeface and headlines is popular, but the descriptions above  shouldn't be missed. What company releases new versions of its flagship product at lower prices? The same company that launched a retail store on April fools day. The new Schiit Yggdrasil DACs are cheaper than the original Yggdrasil, and all three models will be available for purchase. 

     

    This is the most consumer centric move in HiFi in recent memory. Schiit Audio developed new DACs for less money and will offer both new DACs and the original DAC to consumers. The company didn't decide which one consumers should like, or release only a more expensive model and say it's the best DAC Schiit knows how to make. Although I would've laughed if Schiit created a video and said, we started over, from a clean slate, to create the best Yggdrasil ever, and said it in a Jony Ive voice. 

     


    The Setup

     

    The listening sessions were in the main two channel listening room at The Schiitr. I asked for RAAL-requisite SR1a headphones as well, and Schiit happy obliged, given its Jotunheim R was the first direct drive amp capable of powering these headphones. Everything was setup before I arrived, so I neither saw anything nor heard anything that would make the listening not so blind. 

     

    MacMiniUSB3.jpgThe audio chain consisted of a Mac Mini running Roon, with individual USB cables connected to the three Yggdrasils, interconnects from the Yggdrasils to an XLR switch box, one pair of interconnects from the XLR switch box to the Schiit Ragnarok amplifier, and speaker cables out to Magnepan LRS speakers. The analog interconnects from the Yggdrasil DACs ran through a custom built tube that made it impossible to follow the cables from the DACs to the switch box, just incase someone wanted to accept that fools errand. The Yggdrasils had no differentiating SMT, or soft biometrics such as scars, marks, or tattoos as they say in the crime fighting world. In other words, nobody had any idea which Yggdrasil was which, or if the three were even different. 

     

    Identifying the DACs required looking at the serial numbers on the back and running that through a double secret decoder ring to which nobody had access. After all the listening was done, Schiit had to jump through some hoops to identify each DAC. 

     

    Yggdrasil XLR Switch.jpgThe XLR switch box was labeled X, Y, and Z. One letter for each Yggdrasil is what I assumed, but I guess Schiit could've messed with me and had a single unit go to all three letters or something similar. Fortunately that wasn't the case. 

     

    Changing the audio from one Yggy to another involved walking up to the switch box and turning the dial. It was simple. If someone else turned the dial for the listener, that someone else also had no clue which DAC was playing either. At the end, we fund out that X, Y, and Z didn't even correspond to the placement of the DACs on the ground. X wasn't on the left and Z wasn't on the right. 


    Note: Other speakers from Salk Sound were used as well, but given there are 23 models of Salk floor standing speakers and I didn't take a photo of them, I'll have to follow up with the specific model number. 

     

     

    The Ask

     

    Tell us what you think. That's it. That's all Schiit said. Of course, it was fun to take things even further by trying to identify each DAC based on what I knew about the models, but Schiit never put such a requirement forward. There was no pressure to identify the best measuring DAC by ear or anything similar. It was about relaxing, or I guess jumping up and down going ape Schiit if one wanted to, listening to whatever music one wanted, and giving an opinion. There were no wrong answers.

     

     

     

     

    New Yggdrasil Listening Blind System.jpg

     

     


    The Listening

     

    At about 11:30AM Schiit turned over the listening room to us and said have at it. We could all listen together, individually, or any which way we desired. Listening with others, and being not quite in the perfect center spot can be a little challenging, but I listened to several tracks this way and to good results. After a while I stepped out, but went back in the room when I could listen by myself.

     

    I took 7.1 pages of notes with an ink pen on a legal pad. I say 7.1 because the last page says SAME THING diagonally across the entire page in large letters. At the end of the session, the more I listened, the more I heard the exact same differences that I heard in the first 30 seconds. The DACs didn't sound the same, but I wasn't going to find anything new by listening longer and taking another page of notes. In total, I probably spent 2.5 hours listening. I brought a USB stick with plenty of Japanese jazz from the Three Blind Mice record label, among other albums including folk, classical, and rock. 

     

    My notes consist of labels X, Y, and Z, with a specific track name above the letters. I played a track, then switched between X, Y, and Z as I listened. Sometimes I started the track over each time I switch to a different DAC. I wanted to give each DAC a shot at reproducing the exact same music. 

     

    Let's cut to the final chase scene before going over the nuances of listening to each DAC. By far, my favorite version is Yggdrasil Less Is More. That's right, the least expensive model, with the least number of bits (16 bit DAC chips, 17 bits total), sounded the best. It wasn't even close. The second place DAC was Yggdrasil OG, the original Yggy that I've listened to for years in my system. My least favorite DAC was Yggdrasil More is Less. You read that right, the best measuring multi bit DAC ever, sounded the worst to me. This conclusion wasn't a close call. 


    My preference 

    1. Yggdrasil Less Is More ($2,199)
    2. Yggdrasil OG ($2,599)
    3. Yggdrasil More is Less ($2,349)

     

    My notes about each DAC range from high praise to describing one as a "jumbled mess." Here are some specifics about what I listened to and what I heard. 


    My top pick, Yggdrasil Less Is More, was better in every sense of the word. Listening to Jack Johnson's track Flake (16 bit / 48 kHz remaster by Bernie Grundman), the steel drum was really clear at low volume and had great separation between mallet strikes. The Yggdrasil OG was also good, but not as good. Through Yggdrasil More is Less, cymbals sounded harsh, and drums sounded as if they were recorded in a box. Keep in mind that this is all relative. Each DAC in isolation is probably fantastic. But, compared to each other with the flick of a switch, these differences are very easy to spot and stick out like a sore thumb. 

     

    Listening to Midnight Sugar by the Tsuyoshi Yamamoto Trio game me more of the same information about each DAC. 

     

    Yggdrasil Less Is More ($2,199) - The sound was 100% appropriate, in that it can be sharp or mellow and everything in between. This DAC didn't editorialize. When the piano started on this track, I leaned back and said "Yes." The sound put me at ease, relaxed me, and was absolutely right. The DAC has great bass extension with articulation and solidity. The piano hammer strikes at roughly 2:20 into the track sounded fantastic. It's hard to want more from a DAC than this Yggy can give. 

     

    Yggdrasil OG ($2,599) - The original Yggdrasil was good on this track, but not at the same level as the Less is More DAC. Bass was a touch boomy, but not loose. I heard the slightest touch of a synthetic sound in the mid to low frequencies of the piano compared to my favorite version of the Yggy. None of this is audible when listening in isolation and I've never heard this on my own system. But, under direct comparison, it was there for one's ears to hear. 

     

    Yggdrasil More is Less ($2,349) - OK, I'll say it, what a disappointment for me. I hear blur in the midrange, extra crispy high frequencies, and harsh hammer strikes. Despite this DAC's measurement bonafides, I'm not a fan of its sound. It offered no redeeming qualities for me. This wasn't the case for others listening, but at this level of performance it's really about taste. 


    Listening to Shelby Lynne's track Like a Fool provided more of the same information.

    Yggdrasil Less Is More ($2,199) - The acoustic guitar was natural, sounded great, and real. Everything on this track sounded right. 


    Yggdrasil OG ($2,599) - Shelby's vocal was good and the drums had good air / space around them. One thing I noticed with this track through the Yggy OG was it sounded a bit slow. That's a tough one to articulate better, but it just lacked the pace I expected. 


    Yggdrasil More is Less ($2,349) - The measuring champ sounded "better on this track than the other tracks," according to my notes, but one key aspect that I noted was a lack of balance. Instruments seemed to pop out unnaturally as if I was listening to the sonic equivalent of an HDR photo that may be neat at first but nothin like the real event it was supposed to document. 


    Putting some classical through the Yggdrasils was no different. This is where I wrote "jumbled mess" for the Yggdrasil More is Less ($2,349). It just sounded congested to me, as if the details were lost. I could hear everything through Yggdrasil Less Is More ($2,199), and in typical Yggy OG fashion I heard tons string texture through this DAC. Keep in mind that I had no cue which DAC was which while listening and taking these notes. 

    The conversation

     

    After listening for 2.5 hours, some of us, including those who designed the DACs, sat around and chatted about what we heard. Opinions were already written in permanent ink, so there was no hedging on what we heard. This is where I took a guess trying to identify each DAC as X, Y, or Z. I knew the sound of Yggdrasil OG and wrote that it absolutely had to be DAC Z. Fortunately I was right, when all was revealed. 

     

    What I mixed up was identifying the new Yggdrasil DACs. After so many years of having measurements beat into my head, I assumed the DAC I absolutely loved would be the best measuring Yggy and the DAC that was a "jumbled mess" to me, would be the least expensive 17 bit Yggy.  When it was revealed that the $2,199 Yggdrasil Less is More was easily my favorite DAC, my mind was a bit blown. How could this be? It's "only" 17 bits? It measures better than the original Yggy, but not as good as the the more expensive Yggdrasil More is Less. 

     

    These question lead to a wonderful discussion with Mike Moffat and Jason Stoddard as we sat around The Schiitr. I walked away from this experience more disillusioned with traditional measurements than I've ever been. Yes, measurements are great when designing products, but they are one data point among many others. Each of these three Yggdrasil DACs measures really good, but one is the best measuring multi bit DAC ever made. What does that even mean beyond the fact that it's the best measuring multi bit DAC ever made? In my opinion, it means nothing beyond the statement alone. 

     

     

    The Conclusion

     

    The double blind listening session at The Schiitr and the discussion that followed with Mike and Jason of Schiit, was an absolute blast. I'm sure there's a Ph.D. of double blind tests reading this shaking his head, but I really don't care. I reached my conclusions without identifying the hardware to which I was listening. My conclusions, especially the part about the DAC that made me sit back in the chair and feel at ease, were nearly identical with someone else who knows a thing or two about each of the DACs. When he described this immediate relaxed feeling to me, I looked at my notes and my eyes got as large as dinner plates. It's like he was reading my notes, even though he was too busy talking outside the room during the entire time I was listening and writing. 

     

    I applaud Schiit Audio for creating two new Yggdrasil DACs that are less expensive than the original, and offering all three for purchase. Options are always a good thing, and spending less money for more is as well. I've requested the $2,199 Yggdrasil Less is More for review because it was clearly the best sounding DAC at The Schiitr that day. My words may seem like objective statements of fact, but in reality being the "best sounding" can only be subjective. I'm sure others will find much more enjoyment in one or both of the other Yggdrasils, but that's the beauty of having options. At this level of performance, it really is about personal preference. 

     

     

     

    Product Details:

    Schiit Audio Yggdrasil Less is More $2,199

    Schiit Audio Yggdrasil More is Less $2,349

    Schiit Audio Yggdrasil OG $2,599

     

    Yggdrasil Product Page (link)



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    15 hours ago, JoeWhip said:

    We all have different processors between our ears. Come on man!

    Would u say 3 Michelin star French cuisine tastes better than  no Michelin star French cuisine? 

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    37 minutes ago, Rexp said:

    Would u say 3 Michelin star French cuisine tastes better than  no Michelin star French cuisine? 

     

    Do you know the process of acquiring a Michelin star? I have read stories about it not always being above board...

     

    That said, I can see a scenario where a non Michelin star restaurant or chef could make food just as good or better. I have a friend who travels to attend cooking classes in Italy and France regularly, as well as here in town and the US. She is an amazing cook. I would go to her house before I would go to almost any restaurant confident in the knowledge that what I will eat will be outstanding. She has no Michelin stars.

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    5 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

     

    Do you know the process of acquiring a Michelin star? I have read stories about it not always being above board...

     

    That said, I can see a scenario where a non Michelin star restaurant or chef could make food just as good or better. I have a friend who travels to attend cooking classes in Italy and France regularly, as well as here in town and the US. She is an amazing cook. I would go to her house before I would go to almost any restaurant confident in the knowledge that what I will eat will be outstanding. She has no Michelin stars.

    I find I agree with the Michelin judges neally all the time. These judges are connoisseurs who have superior tasting skills to Joe Average. Its the same with audio, some have superior listening skills. 

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    3 minutes ago, Rexp said:

    I find I agree with the Michelin judges neally all the time. These judges are connoisseurs who have superior tasting skills to Joe Average. Its the same with audio, some have superior listening skills. 

     

    I don't doubt your experience at all. If I can find that story again I will link it for you.

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    3 hours ago, Rexp said:

    Would u say 3 Michelin star French cuisine tastes better than  no Michelin star French cuisine? 

    Impossible to make a general statement like that, but of course it's possible in some instances.

    Also, the stars aren't awarded solely on the basis of taste.

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    I have been fortunate enough to have dined at 3 star Michelin restaurants, although I prefer ones in Rome to France. Rather than comparing 3 star to no star, I would compare different entres at the same place. As an example, I would always pick beef over fish. A matter of taste or flavors if you will. Don’t forget that part of the experience at a Michelin restaurant is how the courses are presented. Btw, some of the best meals I have had around the world were at non starred restaurants although almost all of the Michelin experiences were superb.

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    These Michelin star critiques are kind of nit picky to the extent of missing the point, in a way similar to others that challenge our ability to rank art.  No doubt that stars are awarded for more that food's taste alone.  No doubt that each of us could find a chef a zero stars that we would prefer to a starred restaurant.

     

    But if any one of us who enjoyed fine dining visited 10 starred places and 10 randomly chosen other restaurants at similar price points, and then ranked them all, it's a good bet that the top 5 or 10 would be disproportionately starred.

     

    Rankings may not be perfect, but that does not mean they do not exist at all

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    In three starred restaurants you may not always agree with the taste of the chef but you can never deny their genius. Having dined in many, this is my view. 

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    Over decades have been lucky to dine a starred Michelin places.  FWIW, the difference I have observed in food quality/preparation between 2 and 3 stars is not very distinct.  The third star seems to be awarded based upon quality/ambiance of the venue, service level, quality of china and glassware, depth of wine cellar...all playing a role in the quality of the experience, but not what's on the plate.  

     

    As of late, when traveling abroad, we have decided to focus on the 1 star places, particularly newly awarded ones, and those that focus on very regional cuisine.  If in Italy or Spain, it kind of makes no sense to be eating dishes with Asian influences or Frenched out Italian or Spanish food, when real Italian and Spanish foods well prepared are amazing.  Many of the 2 and 3 star places trend towards "international" food or overworked dishes that look like art on the plate but to me do not deliver.  An example, Alinea in Chicago; my son and a foodie friend at end of the tasting menu at this 3 star restaurant took a walk back to our hotel and when I asked my son for his take on the experience, he said it was "cool", the I asked him if he returned "which dish would he order again?" The answer was "none".  I felt the same way...all contrived, over thought out dishes, short on flavor.  My foodie buddy said he was thinking about getting a slice or a burger after that meal, because he felt unsatisfied.

     

    Loved my Theta Gen Va for years.  Still do not understand why the guys who invented the DAC Pre do not produce a DAC with a variable attenuator when it makes so much sense in a digital audio world.  So I'll sit it out until they do.

     

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    Just now, 57gold said:

    Loved my Theta Gen Va for years.  Still do not understand why the guys who invented the DAC Pre do not produce a DAC with a variable attenuator when it makes so much sense in a digital audio world.  So I'll sit it out until they do.

     

    Yes, the lack of preamp capability is the reason the Yggdrasil was dropped from consideration when I was shopping last year. (Nevertheless, I'm very happy with my exaSound E32).

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    2 minutes ago, 57gold said:

    Still do not understand why the guys who invented the DAC Pre do not produce a DAC with a variable attenuator when it makes so much sense in a digital audio world.

    I’ve asked so many times!

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    2 hours ago, 57gold said:

    Loved my Theta Gen Va for years.  Still do not understand why the guys who invented the DAC Pre do not produce a DAC with a variable attenuator when it makes so much sense in a digital audio world.

    Isn’t Theta Generation VIII exactly that ?

    https://www.stereophile.com/digitalprocessors/204theta/index.html

    I guess you know who that guy was, that invented the Theta DAC’s ?

     

    If anyone has compared the Theta G8 S3 with any other modern DAC, I like to hear.

     

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    On 9/9/2021 at 5:34 AM, manisandher said:

    Hats off to Schiit for doing this. But if they'd have included one of their cheaper non-multibit DACs, that really would have been something.

     

    Mani.

     

    I agree. I have two Schiit Modi's (Modi 3 + multi-bit) and their Freya pre-amp. I also just got a Topping D10s and have an Allo Boss 2 on one of my Raspberry Pi's. Would love to know if I could hear a significant improvement in my main sound system with one of these new Yggy's, but I don't want to spend the time and possible expense of a restocking fee to find out.

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    On 9/9/2021 at 8:34 AM, manisandher said:

    Hats off to Schiit for doing this. But if they'd have included one of their cheaper non-multibit DACs, that really would have been something.

     

    Mani.

    I have a Bifrost on a second system.  It's a good DAC for the money, but the Yggy crushes it.  They aren't really comparable products

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    1 hour ago, skikirkwood said:

    Would love to know if I could hear a significant improvement in my main sound system with one of these new Yggy's, but I don't want to spend the time and possible expense of a restocking fee to find out.

    Agreed.  I readily upgraded to the Gen 2 for about the same price as this swap, but they pushed that as an unambiguous improvement.  Plus, I am the kind of guy they are warning not to try the board swap at home, haha

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    7 minutes ago, PeterG said:

    I have a Bifrost on a second system.  It's a good DAC for the money, but the Yggy crushes it.  They aren't really comparable products

     

    I am planning on driving down the California coast from San Francisco to L.A. next month. If I do, I will most certainly stop at the Schiitr and do some comparative listening!

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    Thanks Chris for your quick turnaround review, I always value your opinion. Yggdrasil (current model) is on my DAC purchase short list, so your comparison of it to the two new models could not have come at a better time. And kudos to the Schiiters for setting up a quality double blind test.  

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    49 minutes ago, baldr said:

    The boards were all made with my best efforts. None were gimped or boosted. It was an exercise in making a better Yggy. 

    Really appreciate your comment as well as all of your contributions, Mike!

     

    I placed an order for the LiM, and can't wait for it to arrive. Tho, I'm curious if you think there's more untapped potential to make the MiL chip truly sing through firmware updates given it's a newer chip design?

     

    And it'd be super interesting to hear your thoughts on why you think it may be the case that the LiM ends up being your preferred choice?

     

    Take care of yourself!

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    2 hours ago, baldr said:

    I realize that I cannot please all – the variety of boards offer options.


    Is a RJ45 or a SPF with NAA and/or RAAT support a future possibility, and if not, why ?

     

     

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    5 hours ago, firedog said:

    Schiit doesn't seem interested in doing any software support

    Well, isn’t that limited to extremely few automatic? updates from Miska and/or Roon ? Let me hope for nice an answer (explanation)  from Schiit about this.

     

    I’m not asking for anything equal to Bluesound, with direct support to several (almost all) streaming services.  

     

    I left Ravenna out in my question to Schiit as I think at present time, the interest is limited and I would assume it involves a lot more work to implement, and hence also additional cost added to the final product.

     

     

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