Give Me More Tidal Max

All I really want to know is whether they are still streaming MQA.  If not, then I'm fine with their labels.  But I want to know if I'm getting MQA when i set my player for the highest tier, AND if I'm still getting MQA when I drop to the HiFi setting.  Does anyone know the answer to that one?  Because I'm just fine with CD quality, but not MQA.

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6 minutes ago, phoenixdogfan said:

All I really want to know is whether they are still streaming MQA.  If not, then I'm fine with their labels.  But I want to know if I'm getting MQA when i set my player for the highest tier, AND if I'm still getting MQA when I drop to the HiFi setting.  Does anyone know the answer to that one?  Because I'm just fine with CD quality, but not MQA.

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I hear you loud and clear on that one. I don't think anyone knows the answer and I don't think there is a single answer for every setting or even song. 

Yup, agree Chris after all these years with debates about the value of hi-res digital.

If the streaming source can tell me if it's lossy (MP3, AAC, MQA), and tell me if it's beyond standard CD, hopefully reflective of the "best" version from the studio - "Max", then I think that's enough. Otherwise the standard is 16/44.1 "CD" resolution which sounds great.

I think as audiophiles we need to remember that in reality, if we actually did controlled testing, given the same mastering down-sampled + dithered well (like say using iZotope RX) down to 16/44.1, there is no evidence that we can tell a difference (see reports like this or this). And even if we could, there is no evidence that a person will necessarily enjoy the hi-res version more. In fact, it could be the opposite (eg. sometimes we see all kind of ultrasonic noise in hi-res that can have intermodulation effects). Sure, we could be "Golden Ears" (typically young folks <30 I think) but we need to prove that to ourselves first before proclaiming such a thing openly. ;-)

Whether it's 24/48 or 24/96 or 24/192 or 24/352.8 IMO is meaningless as humans; maybe the bats and dogs care! On the DSD side, while I prefer DSD128 over DSD64/SACD due to inherently lower noise just above the audible spectrum, that also doesn't really matter. Bigger numbers can be impressive but probably more often than admitted by us audiophiles, act like a placebo when we nod in approval as if we notice a difference with those big numbers proudly displayed on our DACs. 🧐

Obviously if the stereo hi-res version is a different mix/master, then I have no doubt it could be significantly better (or worse).

This sort of thing reminds me of my first experience of "terrible!" MP3 ... . My son brought a burnt CD of songs he liked, which were obviously in WAV format, to be readable by the player. And they were a good introduction to the music he was into at the time - and sounded fine: interesting music, very "musical". And then at some point he mentioned that they were from an MP3 source, at a very ordinary sampling rate; he had no interest in 'audiophile' issues. Right, so that was what that "horrible compression!!" did to SQ - to my ears, no great tragedy ... .

I love the varied opinions! All good. 

7 hours ago, austinpop said:

If it's an album that's been released or remastered multiple times, what I value is a streaming service that has all the versions, so I can do my own TBVO (the best version of). My choice of best version could and will differ from someone else's.

Agreed.  Using Qobuz, I've had several instances where the highest resolution available does not sound the best.  Assume it must be the result of different masters used.  

In general, however, anything 24 bit always sound better than 16 bit, at least for recent recordings.  Sometimes, the higher resolution streaming version sounds as bad as the rip of the original CD of a certain vintage (1976 being one recent example).  

Like @phoenixdogfan, my big concern with Tidal was/is whether Tidal is purging its servers of MQA or simply ending the labeling and/or “authentication” of its existing MQA files. (I’m guessing there’s no way to tell besides downloading Tidal’s files and using @pkane2001’s DeltaWave to see if they’re bit identical to the same files from a non-MQA source of the same mastering?)
 

I’ve gone through so many streaming services, starting back with MOG, if I remember correctly. I always subscribe to at least two. A while ago, I replaced Tidal with Apple, largely because of the MQA issue. But if Tidal were transparent about if/how users can avoid MQA entirely, I very well might switch back.

On the larger issue of bit depth and sample rate, I completely agree with@Archimago that Redbook is in almost all cases transparent. I do my TBVO comparisons with Redbook content. As I’ve learned, mixing Redbook with Hi-Res messes up Har-Bal’s graph averaging. When I align my level-matched files in Audacity for instant switching, it’s better to have files of the same type, too. I’ve never felt that I’m missing out on anything by downsampling Hi-Res files to do my TBVOs. 
 

That said, the consumer advocate part of me agrees with @austinpop on the fact that, in the age of high-speed internet, record labels should be providing their highest bit depth/sample rate files to download sites and streaming providers. While storage isn’t free, the price delta between Redbook and Hi-Res downloads on some sites strikes me as pretty out of whack with hosting costs. More sites should be like Bandcamp and price Redbook and Hi-Res the same (though Bandcamp could improve in the download quality clarity department). Even if I doubt I’m going to hear any difference between the 24/192 original and a 16/44.1 downsample, I’d still rather have the original file and downsample it myself for convenience if necessary. 

11 hours ago, austinpop said:

If it's an album that's been released or remastered multiple times, what I value is a streaming service that has all the versions, so I can do my own TBVO (the best version of). My choice of best version could and will differ from someone else's. I don't need somebody at Tidal deciding for me.

Nobody at Tidal (or other streaming service) is deciding. It is the record label that decides which version(s) they want to release to streaming services. The streaming services are only a distribution middleman. They receive millions of files from the record labels and stream them to customers.

7 hours ago, bobfa said:

I do not think Tidal has a clue about the provenance of any piece of music on their service.

The provenance is only known by the record label. The streaming services do not have provenance information beyond what is provided in the music file metadata.

Just now, bobfa said:

As I sit here reading this and not getting my work done.  I think about Sonos and also Apple Music.  There is no best version, no bit rate display (ok a little but you get my drift). As Hans B. says "Enjoy the Music"

And, you can still keep your Audiophile membership card :~)

10 minutes ago, bobfa said:

As Hans B. says "Enjoy the Music"

If one of MQA's biggest supporters in the Netherlands  is telling to enjoy the music. , I am running far away as fast as I can

16 hours ago, JoshM said:

More sites should be like Bandcamp and price Redbook and Hi-Res the same (though Bandcamp could improve in the download quality clarity department).

While I'm wildly in favor of this, I'm certain the labels can't pass up a chance to make more money. So yes, everyone reading this, when a recording comes out that you might want to own, definitely check out Bandcamp.

(And @JoshM, we need to tell those folks to list the resolution with the recording, because I've already gotten RedBook resolution files of stuff that's available in hi res on Qobuz. I've heard wonderful RedBook and lousy hi res, but I agree with @austinpop that truth in labeling is important. If there are a RedBook and a hi res version available, I'd like the one that wasn't possibly mangled by a subpar downsampling/upsampling process.)

Speaking about streaming only, I would be perfectly happy with the Streaming providers just offering 16/44 CD Quality and an MP3 Tier and calling it a day. They can dumb the naming down from there to say things like "MAX" or "MP3"...etc for better consumption by the regular Joe's. At least this way you can be more sure of what you are getting in terms of a "MAX" Tier.

I'm one of those weird people though who thinks they can notice a difference between Streaming and Local albums where the Local albums are assumed to be the same as the Streaming version. This is due to purchasing that album from the same Streaming provider. To these ears, in those cases, the Local albums sound noticeably better than the Streaming version whether they are CD quality or higher than that. 

So I guess based on my ears/system and experiences thus far, I don't see the point of trying to Stream much beyond 16/44 CD quality. I wonder if the providers did this would they suffer fewer headaches from angry buyers who bought a "High Res" version of an album but it only measures like a Red Book 😀.

Content is King. I have always used Tidal (originally used wimp before it was bought) and never made the switch to qobuz. I stopped worrying too much about the details. The. Again, my speakers resamw everything to one rate and bit depth anyway…

Rather enjoyed the relaxed vibe of this review. One doesn't have to completely give up their audiophile card to appreciate something. We all can do with a bit of positivity along with the zeal for the best possible quality. Thank you for continued updates and reviews.

12 minutes ago, SQFIRST said:

Rather enjoyed the relaxed vibe of this review. One doesn't have to completely give up their audiophile card to appreciate something. We all can do with a bit of positivity along with the zeal for the best possible quality. Thank you for continued updates and reviews.

Thats exactly how I hoped this would come across. 🙏

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Perhaps if we as audiophiles focus on details other than the sample rates in which our music is delivered, as long as we’re getting the best version of course, our adjusted focus will help improve sound quality in other ways. Improved upsampling algorithms, room correction, or god forbid immersive audio. 

We have so many ways of acquiring music but fewer ways of discovering music.  I love the threads here on "the album of the evening".   There is no computer deciding what I might like to listen to via some "method or attention". We have real people telling us what the like!  There is a lot of music diversity here.

I like following a few artists on Band Camp as they inform me of things their peers are producing.  This can lead to little silos but I understand that.

I currently only subscribe to Apple Music as most of my selected gear will play from that service.  I have many wishes that have not been filled by any service and apple does not fully fit my needs.  It just comes as part of this nice bundle of services I am already paying for and they do ATMOS!  Do not even get me started on Airplay or Chromecast for that matter.  Apple hides too many things.

I am most likely turning into a grumpy old man, but simple is better sometimes.  I do not use Roon much any more but that little "light" in the Roon playback system that informs us to the status of the stream is reassuring in some ways and one click away from a very informative audio processing flow indicator.

So is Tidal Max a good thing?  Maybe it is, and maybe the marketing is what grates on me.  OR I just talk too much!

The latest version of Lumin app (now on App Store and Play Store) differentiates CD / MQA / Hi-Res from Tidal as follows.  As for sample rate, once it begins playback, we will detect the sample rate and show it on top if using a tablet (not in this screenshot because it's a phone, which would require swiping horizontally to get a different view with sample rate info.)  I have not done any exhaustive checking, but I have not come across an album with more than one Hi-Res versions (perhaps 24/44.1 plus 24/96).

I assume Roon will be able to allow users to identify the different version as it always have, when they manage to integrate support for MAX.

What about dynamic compressions and poor mastering? I was listening to hotel california on mofi’s new ultra disc one step 45 vinyl. The digital version sounds totally compressed in comparison. Why cannot we get a high quality digital files for audiophiles to purchase? I understand it cannot be included in streaming service for the same subscription price.