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  • Gilbert Klein
    Gilbert Klein

    The Music In Me: Rap of History Backwards The

    A Warning:

    The last two songs in this article might offend some people, so keep that in mind if you’re playing it in a public space— Gilbert.

     

    An Introduction:

    Look, I know I know too little about this subject to say I’m an expert, so I’m not. I’m not going to opine on the form or its practitioners, proponents, prophets or phans. (Sorry, I just had to do that. You get it, with the phat thing, right?) I know there must be rap artists who are soulful more than angry, and I know some people are making beautiful music that’s called rap or hip-hop, and I’m sorry but I must conflate the two. I don’t know about it or the scene, and I don’t have to, because I only want to tell you about the first rap song that I heard, and do a little history. I like a little history. I’ll bet there isn’t a rock fan out there who doesn’t know who Chuck Berry is and his music, but I’d bet there aren’t many rap fans who know who Gil Scott-Heron is. But first, the history, and I’ll ask you to keep in mind that in the entertainment industry, innovation is quickly replicated and exploited.

     

    The History:

    Oh, I am so not the right guy to expound on the history of rap. But I heard a few lines from a song I hadn’t heard in years, see, and it made me think about it. And I have this column, see? I’m telling you now I’m no expert. I’m just a guy. Okay, a guy with a column. Like a lot of old people, I don’t get rap music. I didn’t get it when it started and I’m probably too old now; I ignore it now because when it first broke big, I just didn’t like it. There was too much violence, too many gats, glocks and putting a cap in someone’s ass. It all seemed to be swagger about n--gers, bitches, blunts and bling. I understood anti-social sentiment, honest- I’ve enjoyed a bit of it myself in my youth, but where was the music? Suddenly everyone was clever for stealing using bits from other people’s music. That didn’t used to be cool in the 60’s, man. I appreciated the innovation, but I just didn’t find the music in there. Okay, if melody was going to be subverted by cleverness, I gave it a listen, but what I was hearing just seemed… angry. I understood the anger coming out of urban, less privileged areas like Brooklyn, the Bronx and lower Manhattan. I got that. I got why it was coming from places like Compton. But I missed melody, you know?

     

    So rap sells a lot of music and is one of our most popular music forms. But nothing comes from out of a vacuum, so where did it come from? First, let’s look at the word “rap.” Yeah, it’s a bad thing if it refers to a criminal charge, but that wasn’t what it meant when we used it back in the mid-Sixties. It came from “rapport” and it usually meant that you were under the influence of the demon drug, marijuana. It just meant someone went on a talking jag. Logorrhea, as it were. Could have been about someone on meth, but it came out of the pot community. People got stoned and went off on verbal tangents, sometimes seemingly endlessly. It was kind of a joke, you know, when a guy looked around him and realized he’d been talking nonstop and had no idea what he’d been talking about. That was rapping. Or, you could be with someone else, or even a group, and having an earnest discussion. Pot wasn’t necessarily a component in this instance. That was rapping, too. I used to cringe when they called it a “rap session,” but that’s what we called them back then where I was, and I was in a lot of places. It was just silly talk or a serious discussion; either way, we rapped. And now it means something else, but that’s where it came from, and this is about how it got to here, so we’re going backwards.

     

    Let’s start with all the rap music that’s out in the world right now, and go back from there. Let’s include Kurtis Blow, Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five, and Biggie and Tupac, and N.W.A. and Ice-T and Snoop Dogg and Eminem and Nicki Minaj and Kesha and everyone you know in that field, and there’s a lot of them. Let’s call all of them current artists, and yes, I know who’s dead. Let’s say that these are the folks you know, and for those of you that know more than I do about the recent history of rap, please excuse my glossing over most of the details to get to the first of it. Let’s go backwards to January, 1981. You’ll like this.

     

    The first mainstream rap hit song was “Rapture,” by Blondie. Rap song? Blondie? The New Wave hit machine? Well, it had a rap, no doubt, and up ‘til then, rap had always been tough black guys, mostly gangsta, you feel me? Well, Debbie Harry was as opposite all that as you could devise, but it was rap—okay, maybe rap-ish—but Blondie was a powerhouse group and the song did have rap. It was also the beginning of the Age of Video, and MTV played the bejeesus out of the song. It was November, 1980 when that song came out and became the first major pop hit with rap in it. It was dipping your toes in rap, but it was huge. What preceded it?

     

    Well, that would be “Rapper’s Delight,” by The Sugar Hill Gang, which came out in September, 1979, and went to #36 on the Billboard Hot 100, #4 on the Soul chart, #1 in Canada and Europe. It’s thought of as the first song to introduce rap (or hip-hop) to U.S. audiences, was a great big hit, and you know about sampling, right? This would be when sampling came into prominence, and from that development two phenomena emerged: today’s rap music, and a whole boatload of very wealthy lawyers. And you know who they sampled for this big hit?

     

    Well, that would be “Good Times,” by Chic, which came out in June of 1979, and went on to be sampled too many times to even estimate at this point (note: check out Who Sampled for a list of the 180 times this track has been sampled and many other delights - CC). But “Rapper’s Delight” was the first to almost go mainstream, and when it hit, Debbie brought legendary singer/songwriter/producer/ recent Rock ‘n’ Roll Hall of Fame inductee Nile Rodgers of Chic, to a club where he heard his beats and bass lines being used in some other guys’ song. He asked the DJ what record it was, the DJ told him he just bought it that day in Harlem, and it was an early version of “Rapper’s Delight,” whereupon they sued over the use of their record, and he and his bass player are now listed as co-writers. So, was “Rapper’s Delight” with all the “Good Times’” samples the first rap record to get serious airplay? No, that would be “King Tim III (Personality Jock),” by The Fatback Band, in March of 1979. And think about that title for an indication of how rare this was. It was happening fast, wasn’t it? Where’d this come from?  

     

    The funk dance outfit The Fatback Band was looking for something new, something energetic to put out. Knowing about the parties (remember- we’re going backwards here), they hired Tim Washington, an almost unknown MC who used to throw out raps at parties, and they recorded the song. They were a funk band, but they’d wanted something innovative, something to drive the song, so they went to a rapper because that was still all but unknown on any music charts, but there were dance parties in the Bronx and now elsewhere that were increasing in popularity, and rap was still exciting and daring. They thought the dance parties were not their dance crowd, so they put it out as the B-side. They thought those parties out there were for someone else,  but the song took off like a shot in clubs and parties, and they re-released it as the A-side. I’m guessing the folks over at Sugar Hill Records thought they were on to something as they prepared to release “Rapper’s Delight,” shortly thereafter, and they were right. So now we’re back in March of 1979, when “King Tim” came out. So where’d he come from? Glad I asked.

     

    What had been going on until “King Tim” was parties with MCs, starting in 1973, when Coke La Rock and DJ Kool Herc teamed up for a dance party in the Bronx to celebrate his sister’s birthday. La Rock improvised lines over the beats, mostly calling out to friends in the crowd and making up short stories to the beat, puffing up him and his friends. He did their first few parties from behind the speakers so no one knew who was rapping. For the sixth party, he started calling himself La Rock, and stepped out in front and got bolder, incorporating more poetry into his lines. His antics were getting closer to rap, but it was closer to a combination of performance art and showing off. The idea caught on and other parties started featuring MCs, and I’m using the term in a general way or we’ll be here all day.

     

    Their success made these two players influential as the other MCs started showing up at dance parties. Violence was always a part of the raps because they reflected the reality of life in the ghetto, but the lore must have included the night when DJ Kool Herc was stabbed at a party, and when La Rock went looking to settle the score, he found that friends of the perpetrator had sent the guy out of town. La Rock mostly retired from rapping after that, but his influence lived on with the current and then the next generation of rappers. Later rappers eschewed La Rock’s improvisations, writing out the lyrics out and rehearsing their rhymes with a crew, which allowed them to become more complex. These parties continued outside the notice of mainstream record labels and the songs appeared mostly on tape until The Fatback Band, and we’ve been there and done that, so what the hell could possibly have preceded Coke La Rock in 1973? I’ve got two names for you: Gil Scott-Heron and The Last Poets.

     

    Summer, 1971.  The “Sixties” are over, but racial tensions continue to erupt.

     

    Gi-Scott-HeronAnd this is where I came in. In the old days, the pre-Sixties, we only had AM radios and all we listened to was Top 40. When all that changed with the Underground Radio revolution, we all listened to our FM stations, and that was where this essay starts. The snippet of the song I heard that started me on this quest was in the opening music for the just-ended season of “Homeland,” on Showtime. I heard a phrase that I’d heard the first time in the song “The Revolution Will Not Be Televised,” by Gil Scott-Heron. It would only ever be played on FM in the summer of 1971; it was too hot for AM, and I don’t mean “hot” in the good way. Over the years, the phrase popped up now and then, and I know there isn’t an ex-hipster out there who forgot it, and when I heard it on that show, I wanted to know more about it.

     

    It was played on FM because it was daring, it was about “the revolution” that had evolved into the middle class when the hippies got married and had children; some were left some behind. AM wouldn’t touch it, and it didn’t ignite any flames that I know of, but I heard it, and so did those of us still listening. I wasn’t alarmed, but I did think that this was something new. Not just the message, but the medium. That was new, and I paid attention. It was in 1971, and it didn’t ignite any flames, but it was something different, and that’s what I heard. Different. It was jazzy and pop-ish, but it had a message, maybe a warning. In the early Sixties, Dylan wrote: “Yes, it is I who is knockin’ at your door if it is you inside who hears the noise,” and we heard him knocking when he sang,

     

    Oh the foes will rise with the sleep still in their eyes

    And they’ll jerk from their beds and think they’re dreamin’

    And they’ll pinch themselves and squeal and know that it’s for real

    The hour when the ship comes in

     

    The message was received, the Sixties had come and gone, and there’d been some changes made. But not enough for a lot of the black community, who were still restless, waiting for all the freedoms that were promised so recently. Black Olympians had raised their fists in the Black Power salute, James Brown said “I’m black and I’m proud,” but where were the changes? The influence of the Black Panthers had come and gone by 1971, when Gil Scott-Heron released “The Revolution Will Not Be Televised.” He was speaking for a group that was virtually unheard in pop culture, and we heard the warning. We’d heard it from Dylan, and he’d been chillingly right…

     

    I remember comparing the two in 1971. When I heard it recently, I asked myself if this wasn’t the origin of rap. It was certainly so in my mind, and then I saw that confirmed in my research, but I also found one more step backwards in the history of rap, and that would be to The Last Poets, a group founded in the wake of the late 1960’s Civil Rights Movement, and its Black Nationalist’s offshoot. Angry revolutionaries, they made no effort to couch their message in radio-ready language, and so it was months before Scott-Heron put out “The Revolution Will Not Be Televised” that they released The Last Poets, which, out of concern for my host’s inbox I will call: this song and the other song, neither of which you may play in sensitive situations.

     

    I never heard this group back then, and I can guess why. Maybe it was because of the language? I don’t know, maybe Station Managers or Program Directors or owners felt that playing Gil Scott-Heron was daring, but playing The Last Poets was a bridge too far. Even hippie stations had to sell ads and keep their licenses. Don’t know, don’t care; this is about the first rap music and I think this is it. Maybe you never heard of The Last Poets, either, but they were not unheard, and if you listen, you can hear their echoes today. Them and Gil Scott-Heron.

     

    Were they angry? Definitely. Got a point? You decide. What I decided was that this was as far back as I can trace rap. Yes, there may be evidence of rap as far back as the early 18th Century in Congo Square, but 1970 is as far as I go.

     

    Now rap is everywhere and has fragmented into styles and methods, as it should. It’s in clubs, on TV, on the web and stuck in people’s ears; if there are still boom boxes, then it’s there, too. It’s on the guy’s radio next to you at a red light, and at or near every 7-11 in at least in Southern California, and it’s in movies and TV soundtracks, and it’s in the news, and its biggest stars are the biggest stars, and it’s come a long way from The Last Poets and Gil Scott-Heron and Coke La Rock and The Fatback Band.

     

    You may now go back to the present day. And good day to you.  

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    GilbertgGilbert Klein has enough degrees and not enough stories. He’s been a radio talk show host, a nightclub owner, event producer, and has written two books: FAT CHANCE about the legendary KFAT radio, and FOOTBALL 101. He threatens to write one more. He spent 25 years in New York, 25 years in San Francisco, and is now purportedly retired in Baja.




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    So did Sun Ra make music?  If so, was it Jazz?

     

     

    We will cover Varese later on...  after Phil Lesh's favorite guy...

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    As someone that came up during hip hop's dance party beginnings in NY, through its ripples to this coast, taking on and transformed by local cultures, styles, dances, and fashion along its way, while influencing all points in between, it is a bit sad to see the depth of ignorance of this true American art form, hidden behind the angry posts. I have to think this is what the moldy figs used to say about that degenerate druggie Charlie Parker.

     

    For my part, I don't understand bluegrass because it's not my culture, but I'd never go so far as to say it's not music (though the twang may hurt my ears). Just move along if it doesn't speak to you.

     

    By the way, how would one explain the Hamilton phenomenon if rapping wasn't legit? 

     

    Lastly, Rex Harrison was the first white rapper in a movie lead (My Fair Lady). Decades before Eminem.

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    Ha ha, I think you are all wrong. Rap was invented two thousand years ago in China. When I lived in China I encountered a traditional style of music where the performer uses clappers to create a beat box style of rhythm and then proceeds to rap to it. Particularly popular in Shandong province this has been around for two thousand years. Not sure how it made the jump to become an African American protest music in the early 70s.

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    16 minutes ago, DaQi said:

    Ha ha, I think you are all wrong. Rap was invented two thousand years ago in China. When I lived in China I encountered a traditional style of music where the performer uses clappers to create a beat box style of rhythm and then proceeds to rap to it. Particularly popular in Shandong province this has been around for two thousand years. Not sure how it made the jump to become an African American protest music in the early 70s.

     

    Shaolin monks also had "The Worm" a few centuries before break dancing crews. Perhaps examples of convergent evolution?

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    I don't care how old it it is....it's still not music....in MY book!

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    14 hours ago, DaQi said:

    Ha ha, I think you are all wrong. Rap was invented two thousand years ago in China. When I lived in China I encountered a traditional style of music where the performer uses clappers to create a beat box style of rhythm and then proceeds to rap to it. Particularly popular in Shandong province this has been around for two thousand years. Not sure how it made the jump to become an African American protest music in the early 70s.

     

    Wu Tang Clan?

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    21 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

     

    Wu Tang Clan?

    Ah, the missing link! ;)

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    Nothing new under the Sun(Ra).   

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    10 minutes ago, firedog said:

     

     

    Degree in music/singing? How is that relevant? I'm pretty sure there are many types of Asian, African, and various indigenous styles of singing not taught at those schools. Doesn't mean they aren't singing or don't exist.

     

    Check out the studies that show a larger vocabulary used in rap and hip hop than in lyrics by  Bob Dylan and other forms of sung music.

    Your criticisms of slang etc are also meaningless. Just because it isn't standard usage doesn't make it illegitimate linguistically or less sophisticated than standard usage. It's just different.

    I won't even get into the history of terms like "axe/aks" which are not simple mispronunciations, but are usages hundreds of years old that originate in African languages spoken by slaves. Sure, they aren't standard pronunciations, but they aren't "mistakes", either. They are simply part of a linguisitic subset of English.

    I know of dozens of versions of English spoken around the world. Just because they vary from standard UK or US English it doesn't make them somehow inferior. Dialects are not, by definition, linguistically inferiror, just different.

     

    Language isn't static. 

    I might not use one of these dialects when writing  an academic theisis, but that is a totally different animal than spoken language. 

    Um, most other countries do have their own institutions of training their forms of music.  Africa has a very prolific music studies program.  They original had drummers that were seen as the top musicians and they would teach other students. So, that was a informal studies.  But they do have colleges. I have met several that learned how to play musical instruments by attending these colleges and they were also taught jazz studies.  Many of them played quite a lot better than a lot of American musicians that studied jazz.  Yes, taking private lessons is a form of music studies and you can learn the same thing through private studies.   Japan not have music institutions that that teach the indigenous music of Japan?  Yeah, right. That's how they teach the music of Japan and they also have an education system that also teaches Classical, Jazz, etc.  India? Absolutely they have educational institutions that teach Classical Indian music.  These other countries have very rigid methods.

     

    There is a top jazz musicians that said in an interview that if he wants to play with Indian musicians, he has to study the rules associated with that music so he can play with them, even though he wasn't playing traditional Classical Indian music.  He studied from several of the top Classical musicians which taught him the instruments, but the music theory behind the rhythms and melodies and structure.  But since Classical Indian music has a lot of improvisation, it can easily translate with jazz.  look at the Beatles. George Harrison studied from Ravi Shankar, they had some classical Indian musicians performing a song that was heavily influenced by Indian.  Great song too.  

     

    Miles Davis had Classical Indian musicians playing with his band. So did Don Cherry, Oregon.  But Classical Indian follows the structure.


    One thing that a lot of jazz artists tell people is that you learn the rules of the music system first and then you learn how to break the rules. What the Hip Hop Rap guys are doing is breaking the rules without knowing the rules, so it's out of their own ignorance, which is why they aren't really writing songs, per se, they are just doing whatever they can to create a loop and put stupid lyrics on top of it because they lack the education and ability to write songs and play an actual musical instrument.  That's why they essentially steal samples of other songs, create a loop and call it a song.  Yeah, right. That's a ignorant way to create music. Same thing with drum machines. Most of them are not trained drummers creating drum parts, and most of them sound kind of stupid. If a drummer uses a drum machine, then they are applying their expertise and can come up with something that's able to intertwine with their playing. Hence, Phil Collins as an example. 

     

    But street vernacular isn't a dialect, it's just a bunch of illiterate people that never studied or weren't very good at learning the English language. Remember, most of the American Rappers are supposed to learn English while attending K-12, so it's not like they weren't given the chance. They are just illiterate.   Come on.   I just looked up Ebonics, they don't consider it a dialect.  They consider it American Black English.  But I don't know of any school that will hand out a degree in Ebonics.  It's a combination of the word Ebony and Phonics.  I just think it's a stupid because it's just glamorizing illiteracy. And no, a lot of educated blacks do NOT speak Ebonics or want to promote it. Call it what it is. A lot of it comes from gangs as they try to come up with a language so they can throw off the police that are trying to plan their drug deals and other crimes. That's how gangsta rap came out, but now I see a lot of kids that aren't black trying to ACT black by speaking the same language and copying their mannerisms, and getting involved with drugs, and committing crimes, etc. You know, monkey see, monkey do.  And it's just dumb and a lot of these don't come from ghettos, but they try to act like they did and many of them end up not doing well in school, going to college and getting a job, as they end up going to jail, getting involved with growing pot or selling it, or sponging off their parents. I've seen MANY kids do this and it's disgusting.  Some of the parents don't know what to do about it as they haven't reached a point of kicking them out of the house, which is what they SHOULD do.

     

    I see nothing positive about Hip Hop/Rap and I don't hear anything that I feel is going to be a great song to listen to 40 years from now.  Great music lasts the test of time, and most of these Rap songs don't last long.

     

    Heck, for grins, I watched a video of a Rap concert and I couldn't tell what they were saying, except when they yelled out something like "Hey all you mutherfuckers or bitches or Niggas!!" and then the audience goes nuts and screams along with them.  That's the only part that I could actually tell what they were saying.  The rest just sounded like a complete distorted mess. It was not enjoyable at all.  But I was just laughing at the audience, which was predominately white, getting excited when the rapper called the audience a bunch of X Y or Z.    It was a joke. 

     

    Heck JZ refers to his fan base on Twitter as Bitches.  You think that's positive?  Really?  You think that's appropriate way for kids and young adults how to address one another?  Really?  You think that an educated person, regardless of skin color is going to do that? You think that's appropriate way to communicate in the work place?  Really?  Do you call your mother or wife or girlfriend a bitch to her face?  How does she react?  

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    2 hours ago, DRB100 said:

    Um, most other countries do have their own institutions of training their forms of music.  Africa has a very prolific music studies program.  They original had drummers that were seen as the top musicians and they would teach other students. So, that was a informal studies.  But they do have colleges. I have met several that learned how to play musical instruments by attending these colleges and they were also taught jazz studies.  Many of them played quite a lot better than a lot of American musicians that studied jazz.  Yes, taking private lessons is a form of music studies and you can learn the same thing through private studies.   Japan not have music institutions that that teach the indigenous music of Japan?  Yeah, right. That's how they teach the music of Japan and they also have an education system that also teaches Classical, Jazz, etc.  India? Absolutely they have educational institutions that teach Classical Indian music.  These other countries have very rigid methods.

     

    There is a top jazz musicians that said in an interview that if he wants to play with Indian musicians, he has to study the rules associated with that music so he can play with them, even though he wasn't playing traditional Classical Indian music.  He studied from several of the top Classical musicians which taught him the instruments, but the music theory behind the rhythms and melodies and structure.  But since Classical Indian music has a lot of improvisation, it can easily translate with jazz.  look at the Beatles. George Harrison studied from Ravi Shankar, they had some classical Indian musicians performing a song that was heavily influenced by Indian.  Great song too.  

     

    Miles Davis had Classical Indian musicians playing with his band. So did Don Cherry, Oregon.  But Classical Indian follows the structure.


    One thing that a lot of jazz artists tell people is that you learn the rules of the music system first and then you learn how to break the rules. What the Hip Hop Rap guys are doing is breaking the rules without knowing the rules, so it's out of their own ignorance, which is why they aren't really writing songs, per se, they are just doing whatever they can to create a loop and put stupid lyrics on top of it because they lack the education and ability to write songs and play an actual musical instrument.  That's why they essentially steal samples of other songs, create a loop and call it a song.  Yeah, right. That's a ignorant way to create music. Same thing with drum machines. Most of them are not trained drummers creating drum parts, and most of them sound kind of stupid. If a drummer uses a drum machine, then they are applying their expertise and can come up with something that's able to intertwine with their playing. Hence, Phil Collins as an example. 

     

    But street vernacular isn't a dialect, it's just a bunch of illiterate people that never studied or weren't very good at learning the English language. Remember, most of the American Rappers are supposed to learn English while attending K-12, so it's not like they weren't given the chance. They are just illiterate.   Come on.   I just looked up Ebonics, they don't consider it a dialect.  They consider it American Black English.  But I don't know of any school that will hand out a degree in Ebonics.  It's a combination of the word Ebony and Phonics.  I just think it's a stupid because it's just glamorizing illiteracy. And no, a lot of educated blacks do NOT speak Ebonics or want to promote it. Call it what it is. A lot of it comes from gangs as they try to come up with a language so they can throw off the police that are trying to plan their drug deals and other crimes. That's how gangsta rap came out, but now I see a lot of kids that aren't black trying to ACT black by speaking the same language and copying their mannerisms, and getting involved with drugs, and committing crimes, etc. You know, monkey see, monkey do.  And it's just dumb and a lot of these don't come from ghettos, but they try to act like they did and many of them end up not doing well in school, going to college and getting a job, as they end up going to jail, getting involved with growing pot or selling it, or sponging off their parents. I've seen MANY kids do this and it's disgusting.  Some of the parents don't know what to do about it as they haven't reached a point of kicking them out of the house, which is what they SHOULD do.

     

    I see nothing positive about Hip Hop/Rap and I don't hear anything that I feel is going to be a great song to listen to 40 years from now.  Great music lasts the test of time, and most of these Rap songs don't last long.

     

    Heck, for grins, I watched a video of a Rap concert and I couldn't tell what they were saying, except when they yelled out something like "Hey all you mutherfuckers or bitches or Niggas!!" and then the audience goes nuts and screams along with them.  That's the only part that I could actually tell what they were saying.  The rest just sounded like a complete distorted mess. It was not enjoyable at all.  But I was just laughing at the audience, which was predominately white, getting excited when the rapper called the audience a bunch of X Y or Z.    It was a joke. 

     

    Heck JZ refers to his fan base on Twitter as Bitches.  You think that's positive?  Really?  You think that's appropriate way for kids and young adults how to address one another?  Really?  You think that an educated person, regardless of skin color is going to do that? You think that's appropriate way to communicate in the work place?  Really?  Do you call your mother or wife or girlfriend a bitch to her face?  How does she react?  

    Glad you wrote this.

    First about 99% of it is a non-sequitur - has nothing to do with what I wrote about  and doesn't rebut anything I wrote. Buy hey, I'm glad you used what I wrote as a vehicle to write about what you thought, regardless of any points made by me or anyone else here.

    Second, you really are metaphorically speaking, deaf. So much of what you write is full of intolerance, prejudice, and stereotypes. It must be fun to self confirm your correctness constantly.

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    27 minutes ago, firedog said:

    Glad you wrote this.

    First about 99% of it is a non-sequitur - has nothing to do with what I wrote about  and doesn't rebut anything I wrote. Buy hey, I'm glad you used what I wrote as a vehicle to write about what you thought, regardless of any points made by me or anyone else here.

    Second, you really are metaphorically speaking, deaf. So much of what you write is full of intolerance, prejudice, and stereotypes. It must be fun to self confirm your correctness constantly.

    Deaf?  Hardly.  I hear quite fine. I just don't prescribe to crap.   If the person(s) can't play a musical instrument (singing) with a certainly level of proficiency, then I simply don't think it's good enough for me to listen to it. The music industry allows too much crap being sold.  

     

    Intolerence?  What's wrong with not tolerating prejudgice?  These rappers are racist.  They are disrespectful to the educational system, women, other blacks, whites, the English language, which by the way is the chosen language of the USA.  They glamorize shooting people with guns, they glamorize hitting women, they glamorize smoking pot, etc. etc.  

     

    Stereotypes?  Show me songs that Dre. has his name on it, that is a well written song with lyrics that shows he's got a solid education.  Go ahead. Same goes for Snoop, Ice T, Ice Cube, Eminem, and the rest of them. It doesn't exclude white rappers or other people of other nationalities.  I have not heard a rap song with any musical intelligence behind it where it didn't have sampled music that someone else unrelated to the band was on.  

    Go ahead and live in your own world of Musical ignorance.  I was just giving examples of how the Hip Hop/Rap culture is screwing up society. Just to prove how stupid it is that it exists as a culture and as a form of musical expression.  To find ANYTHING with a rapper is hard to convince me that's it's worth taking seriously.   again, when is it appropriate to speak Ebonics?  Ebonics is the basis for most rap lyrics. Just in case you didn't know.

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    -

    35 minutes ago, firedog said:

    Glad you wrote this.

    First about 99% of it is a non-sequitur - has nothing to do with what I wrote about  and doesn't rebut anything I wrote. Buy hey, I'm glad you used what I wrote as a vehicle to write about what you thought, regardless of any points made by me or anyone else here.

    Second, you really are metaphorically speaking, deaf. So much of what you write is full of intolerance, prejudice, and stereotypes. It must be fun to self confirm your correctness constantly.

    BTW< I'm not prejudice against Blacks.  I have had many friends over the years. I just can't stand igorance in music that's created by those that are of ANY skin color.  Rap is just what was started by a certain group of blacks and now people of other races and skin colors do it, but they follow the same rules of ignorance. I don't want to deal with ignorance. If you want to wallow in your own ignorance, that's your issue, not mine.

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    26 minutes ago, DRB100 said:


    I was just giving examples of how the Hip Hop/Rap culture is screwing up society. Just to prove how stupid it is that it exists as a culture and as a form of musical expression.  

    Don't let the cast of Hamilton hear this.  

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    1 hour ago, DRB100 said:

     

    I pose this argument.  If you want to listen to music, the conventional way of thinking is that music is performed by musicians playing a musical instrument (singing is also included).  Now, in order to become a musician, one must learn how to play a musical instrument and be able to play various forms of music

     

    Nope. Sounds like a 100 year old Western culture only definition. 

    In spite of what you think, rap/hip hop is a type of singing. 

     

    Define: musical instrument.

    A computer or synthesizer can be a musical instrument.  I only need to understand how they work, have ideas, and be able to press buttons to play music.

    Is it music.?:

    1. I can play a simple tune with a computer keyboard and then software  scores it for symphony orchestra and creates the appropriate digital file. Is it music? 

     

    2. In fact, the machine can also play back the music it is creating ibased on a large number of samples of every instrument in the symphony playing it's actual range of sounds. The resulting file sounds like a perfectly played real orchestral performance of the score.  

    Is it music?

     

    3. A "DJ" uses 8 computers and 8 turntables to improvise a performance. He has all 16 devices playing back at once and is constantly changing what he is "playing".  The different devices play off one another, create rhythms, polyrhythms, harmonies, and other complex musical relationships. All of it unique, improvised, and unrepeatable. 

    But all of it based on sampling of songs, synthesized percussion, sampling of instruments, samples of various singing and lyrics. 

    Is it music? 

     

    Guess what the correct answer to all three is? ...Yes.

     

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    Hey firedog,

     

    ....Not even close...

    1 hour ago, firedog said:

    In spite of what you think, rap/hip hop is a type of singing. 

    You can't be serious....Singing????   That's laughable...

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    Grammy - Album of the Year

    Grammy - Best Rap Album

    Grammy - Best Urban /Alternative Performance

     

    #1 - US Billboard 200

    #1 - UK Albums Chart

    #1 - US Billboard R&B / Hip-Hop

     

    Over 11,000,000 sold in the US (Diamond)

     

    246,000,000 views on YouTube

     

    I'll stop here because I don't think it will matter to you, but this is straight factual evidence going against what many are saying. Rap is real, rap is music, rap takes talent, etc...

     

     

     

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    2 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

    Grammy - Album of the Year

    Grammy - Best Rap Album

    Grammy - Best Urban /Alternative Performance

     

    #1 - US Billboard 200

    #1 - UK Albums Chart

    #1 - US Billboard R&B / Hip-Hop

     

    Over 11,000,000 sold in the US (Diamond)

     

    246,000,000 views on YouTube

     

    I'll stop here because I don't think it will matter to you, but this is straight factual evidence going against what many are saying. Rap is real, rap is music, rap takes talent, etc...

     

    Grammys and Billboard rankings do not represent talent, artistic merit, or quality. They are marketing tools and indexes which were created and exist only to self-serve the music industry (not that there is anything wrong with that). Oscars, Emmys, Tonys--same thing.

     

    Rap is real, and probably here to stay. Whether it has any redeeming value is subjective, and cannot be argued. Whether it qualifies as music is a semantic argument which must be considered within a social context.

    Does it take talent? I look at it like graffiti. That was once nothing more than an affront to society. Eventually, it became socially acceptable at a certain level, and was even elevated to an art form by the likes of Keith Haring. On the other hand, many people find it offensive and ugly, and wish it away, ignoring it as best they can.

     

    Why is rap and hip-hop so popular and successful? Kids like what they are taught to like by their friends and by what they are fed by the media. It has always been this way.

    My young nephew first exposed me to rap when he played for me a tape of a new group called Two Live Crew. He said he loved it. I realized then that this might be the beginning of the end of a civilized culture, and it was at that moment that I chose not to have children.

     

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    3 minutes ago, wwaldmanfan said:

    My young nephew first exposed me to rap when he played for me a tape of a new group called Two Live Crew. He said he loved it. I realized then that this might be the beginning of the end of a civilized culture, and it was at that moment that I chose not to have children.

     

    I own the long out of print album As Nasty As They Want To Be. I saw the album as a big F-U to the man and to those who tried to ban free speech. 

     

    I love their response (Bruce Springsteen granted them permission).

     

     

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    Maybe you should look up The Roots... only been on TV for a few years now. 

    Like any other music genre, do your homework, follow the crumbs from one song you like, and they may lead you to other acts beyond the gangsta rap that seems to stick around as representative of a genre, even though they're so 2000s.

    Oh and while gangsta rap had its day, maybe you should also look up Digable Planets, who were the antithesis of the gangsta sub genre.

    There's a lot out there if you want to inform yourselves.

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    As I've said before: Rap and hip-hop have rhythmic sophistication way beyond 99% of "pop," "alternative," etc., offerings, and are very close to the rhythmic sophistication and variety you get with jazz.  If you listen, there are intertwining rhythmic parts as there are intertwining melodic parts in other forms of current popular music.  If it's not for you, great.  But it's not the collapse of civilization, sophistication and intelligence in music.

     

    If you can get yourself to do it, listen to 20 minutes of music on a rap/hip-hop channel.  Then go back to your normal musical diet, and this time, concentrate on the rhythm.  Unless you've got a heavy diet of jazz, you're going to find there's a real sameness to the rhythmic side for most of the music you normally listen to after hearing what's going on in rap and hip-hop.

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    10 hours ago, DRB100 said:

    Every sentence?  Really?   I looked up some of the things as far as the definition.  Rapping isn't singing. If you went to Julliard

     

    This would have more resonance if you spelled "Juilliard" right.

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    15 minutes ago, Jud said:

     

    This would have more resonance if you spelled "Juilliard" right.

     

    Come on, there's no point in fighting about this. It's good that we all have freedom to choose what we want to listen to. Some folks say they hate bluegrass, and blues all sounds the same. Personally, those two musical genres are a huge part of my life. But who cares what I think? No one, and that's fine with me.

     

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