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Subjective / Objective , Philosophy of Science


Tatl

I just made an account here. First post. I'm a 26 year old musician/producer/mixer. I started taking interest in audiophile questions about two years ago, stemming from a quest for dead-accurate monitoring. I've been all over the audio internet, and I've heard a good deal of systems in person. Audiophile and pro, analog and digital, cheap and expensive. It's funny how the audiophile world and the pro world don't really like to mix, even when they're taking interest in the same questions.

 

One of my favorite audiophile writers is Herb Reichert, because he's obsessed with sound that is -direct- and -naked-. Corporeal and palpable. "In the room" explicit. He is allergic to sheen or gloss. His writing asserts that there must still be technological aspects essential to convincing playback that we haven't yet learned to measure, since systems with textbook A+ measurements can still lack this elusive naked quality. Herb prizes this directness over perfect frequency response, dynamic response, or resolution. For him, it is its own parameter with its own merit, and its origin and relation to the others remains mysterious, though he is constantly investigating. Systems that check other boxes, but lack this essential quality, are for Herb false and deceptive, since they offer everything but the soul of the music.

 

Now of course, there are many in the audio world who feel this way, or who perhaps feel similarly about some other quality they've discerned. Most people call them "subjectivists". To me...it seems like they're misunderstood. Their general claim is simply: we haven't learned to measure everything that's important, so one has to keep an open mind and seek undiscovered correlations. We hear differences outside of what is reflected in the measurements.

 

Philosophically speaking, any measurement that reliably correlates to reality, ever made, in any science, was initially correlated to the human subjective senses, or rests on proofs, which ultimately rest on correlations to our naked senses. The most basic proof for 1+1=2 is that you can pick up one twig, pick up another, and there, you have two twigs in your hand. The subjective layer is the FIRST data layer. You always view numbers on pages THROUGH this layer, and interpret them through mental proofs BASED on it. All accepted science is based on subjective impressions our ancestors agreed on.

 

Even the number one is based on subjective experience. The experience of a whole. The experience that an object can be separate from it's environment in the first place. The experience that a pebble is a separate thing from the air or water around it, and that it has a high enough degree of self-consistency to be given a name at all.

 

It seems wildly arrogant to assert "we're at the end of audio science" the way "objectivists" do. What if we aren't? In the past, whenever we thought we were, in any field, were we? No. It's not an intelligent position to take, as far as I'm concerned. Staunch objectivists make a wager: "I bet our theories are perfect." Does that seem like a good bet?

 

The measurements obsession, in my view, and the philosophy it begets, becomes a kind of fascism that grows in the mind. One ends up losing trust for one's sensory impressions, and dogmatizing the impressions of others. OBVIOUSLY blind tests are better. Obviously people's minds can trick them. Obviously measurements are useful. But the fact is, with self-awareness and curious self-skepticism, one can improve one's recognition of sound, in incredibly various ways. We aren't aware of the limits. There are hearing masters who slay blind tests. Charles Hansen posted about a man he knew who could reliably make insane calls blind, including about gear riser materials, etc.

 

In science, data has to be critically interpreted, and fit into hypotheses and theories. Data is also reinterpreted. Endlessly. It always should be. Hypotheses are recrafted and retested. Ultimately, the human is the master of science, not the tool. People seem to be forgetting this...and it honestly creeps me out.

 

One of the most magic parts of life is that you can actually improve ALL of your senses. And you can have a critical, evolving relationship with how you interpret them. It's amazing. You don't need to be a measurement machine's bitch, or a slave to whatever theories are in hegemony. You get to develop your own experience and your own ideas. You can actually plumb the depths of human sense down paths no one has gone before. And you can craft interpretations which are entirely new. Forever.

 

We ought to hammer this out more so we don't lose more folks to the personless, non-critical void.

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19 minutes ago, opus101 said:

 

As a self-identified subjectivist, I have no such belief. Nor have I heard any other subjectivist express such a belief. What evidence is this claim based on?

 

Have you been reading this forum? This is expressed on a daily basis as the reason measurements and controlled testing cannot be taken seriously. Because what a golden ear audiophile hears cannot be measured, since we don't know how to measure it, or our equipment or understanding of audio is not good enough.

 

So, what makes you a subjectivist?

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2 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Have you been reading this forum? This is expressed on a daily basis as the reason measurements and controlled testing cannot be taken seriously. Because what a golden ear audiophile hears cannot be measured, since we don't know how to measure it, or our equipment or understanding of audio is not good enough.

 

So, what makes you a subjectivist?

 

Sure, I've been reading and lurking for a good time. But I've never heard the idea from subjectivists that their perceptual processes are infallible. If you could find a post where this has been claimed then you'd have one piece of evidence. 

 

As to what makes me a subjectivist - reason. Having a brain. There's a brain researcher (he died a couple of years ago) who was also a philosopher, his name was Walter Freeman (not the one who did the lobotomies btw, that was his dad) and the conclusion he came to from his decades of work is that the only reasonable, tenable position to take as a human in possession of a brain is that of being an epistemological solipsist. He distinguished this form of solipsism from the more usual form, which he termed ontological solipsism. This latter one is the claim that 'only I exist'. The former one is 'all I can know to exist is myself' or 'all knowledge is self-knowledge'. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Jackson_Freeman_III

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43 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Have you been reading this forum? This is expressed on a daily basis as the reason measurements and controlled testing cannot be taken seriously. Because what a golden ear audiophile hears cannot be measured, since we don't know how to measure it, or our equipment or understanding of audio is not good enough.

 

So, what makes you a subjectivist?

 

I've seen this. OTOH, I've also seen folks who are subjectivists in that they just want to chat about how something sounded, without having to constantly add "to me," IMHO, etc.

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To take things back from what has become an invasion of Tatl's blog, :), he stated "It seems wildly arrogant to assert "we're at the end of audio science" the way "objectivists" do. " The latter will cry, "Oh no, we're not like that at all! ... We believe in being ever more precious about speakers, and room acoustics, and adding an infinite number of channels - we're not done yet!" But, the people on the other side of the room assert that they can do a hell of a lot, just by being more fussy  - with what we already have .. but the latter activity is hard to nail down, far too 'unscientific' - hence, must lack validity ... so say the objectivists, ^_^.

 

There is an extremely clear path out off all this mess ... just adopt the position that conventional audio is audibly highly flawed - and once one has heard what is possible, this becomes, well, obvious. Like a piece of software that Thought It Could, but is so riddled with issues that it is close to useless - I'm thinking here of DiffMaker, BTW. With programs, anyone trying to get real work done doesn't have to adopt a subjectivist, or objectivist stance ... he just knows, it's a piece of crap!!! Irrespective of how much it cost to develop, or the 'brilliance' of the designer ...

 

So, normal stero playback is faulty, audibly deficient because of a variety of fixable shortcomings - there is no great philosophy here, merely the lack of an appreciation that the product, nearly always, is poorly done.

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21 hours ago, Richard Dale said:

I think it is amazing how well subjectivism  has stood up all these years.

 

Thanks to the gods ...!

 

All the movies I've seen, the books I've read, about the perfect societies are undeniable science fiction situations ...

 

If we see the "developed" or "rich" countries, which have achieved better living conditions than we the "poor" or "underdeveloped". Said status of quality of life defined by international organizations, etc.

But let's see what happens with those who have achieved "development": overregulation, which brings a lot of inconveniences and discomfort in the population. That is why I very much doubt the definition of "quality of life".

 

Not long ago I admired these developed countries, now I have my serious doubts, since my small and poor country has been copying this overregulation trying to achieve its "development". Quite a lot has been achieved, if that was the goal, but with an increasing malaise of its population.

 

I allow myself to make this comment in this blog since philosophy is spoken ...

 

Roch the Rebel

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I really enjoy the unregulated Viking life - great parties after we pulled our longboats ashore in Paris, and nobody was able to overregulate us at all!  Now THAT is quality of life !!  (or quality of strife - take yer pick).

 

Immigration done right!

 

 

 

 

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As usual, the battle of audiophoolery from both sides ensues.

 

What's wrong with living with both?

 

If subjectivism is all nonsense and biases and BS, why has it stood the test of time for so many years? You can fool all the people some of the time, or some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time.

If a person has an objective mindset, he would be inquisitive enough to ask "why is there so many people who keep hearing xxx?", and find ways to measure or prove/disprove it. Just calling it "bias" and "because science says so" is lazy and biased against a specific sets of data points... which by definition is being non-objective and biased.

 

The reason established theories exist is exactly because some scientist was curious enough to investigate occurrences or trends that no one have yet to study.

 

I investigate for myself if cables make

a difference by building my own cables and listening to them to see if the subjectivist are nonsense. I found out something else instead: different RCA plugs (non-audiophile stuff: Amphenol and Switchcraft) of the same cable were sounding different enough for me and other "objectivists" to notice it. 

 

This is how a real objective mind is about: to be inquisitive, and investigate especially in the face of contradicting information.

 

Also, "subjectivists" are not the enemy of "objectivists". They are consumers just like everyone else. Stop harassing another consumer just because they hear things differently. A baby seal didn't die every time someone post a subjective observation.

 

At the same time objective measurements and hard data are also needed in this crazy audiophile market where just too many nonsense marketing is going on. Just too many hype trains going on, and measurements help keep the industry honest (without resorting to vile, aggression, hateful speech). I personally tend to gravitate towards products with good measurement specs, before listening and trying.

 

I like how some cable companies go about balancing this: make a cable with good measurements and established theories (capacitance, inductance, proper geometry, etc) and publish these data; but also provide "subjective" choices to consumers who appreciate it (metal & insulator materials, unique plugs, etc).

 

As a side note, I have also noticed that "objectivists" are the mostly disruptive and joyless people in audio. They are always ready to pounce, and unwilling to accept opposing views. While "subjectivists" tend to be more open minded, willing to listen for themselves, happy to share, and more accepting of the fact that different people hear differently. Now who's being objective, ay? =P

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